Deschooling
I’m a newbie to this list but not to the idea of unschooling. I’ve thought
of myself as an unschooler since my daughter was about 4. The kids are now
ages 8 and 4.
My daughter went to preschool until she was 4 and then no
longer wanted to attend cause she didn’t like her new teacher. My son tried
preschool this past fall. He was so eager to try and after two weeks
adamantly wanted out and has sworn off school since. I thought that going to
school might help him make more friends in our town–he thought it would be
like Barney :-/ Boy, were we both wrong!
The idea of deschooling has so many layers I think. On Sandra Dodd’s
website, she recommends some movies to watch while deschooling. Its hard for
me to not think of this as an assignment, an ingredient in learning
necessary for me to really deschool. Does anyone kwim? Or reading Holt. If I
only read enough, I will “get it”. If I only read enough emails on this
list, I will “get it”. Its schooling that encourages this sort of thinking
of knowledge coming from authorities from without–its hard to just think
about ideas as simply ideas–to be mulled over, shelved or acted on.
We went out to eat at to a hibachi steakhouse for my daughter’s birthday .
We were sitting with some strangers (if you’ve never been to such a place,
everyone sits around the grill and watches the chef throw utensils, stir fry
food, make an onion volcano, and make fire.
The people we were sitting with were from our town. Of course, the conversation turned immediately to school. These people were chatty question askers. Does anyone else not want to talk about unschooling with schooling people? We managed to not share that we were homeschooling by saying we lived by such and such school. I
didn’t want to talk about homeschooling with them. I didn’t want to defend
what we are doing or try to explain it.
I wanted to watch the fire making chef and have fun with the kids. I like when summer comes cause no well meaning stranger is asking me why my kids aren’t in school during the day……
***
If we all just “got it” by mulling it over, we wouldn’t need lists or books
or movies.
Different things work for different people.
The movies Sandra lists are “unschooly” movies—like _Ferris Bueller’s Day
Off_ where lots happens OUTside school. It’s not an assignment unless you view
it as such. It could be be seen as a great way to spend a week—-watching
movies in your pj’s!
John Holt’s writings (especially in order) are eye-opening. He was writing
all this when I was in high school. *My* high school teachers certainly never
read him!
***
At what point do you help put learning ideas into their heads or does that
even matter? I’m very new at homeschooling and very very new at unschooling
It was tough enough to explain homeschooling to family and friends, I can
t wait to figure out how to explain unschooling. I may just keep it quite.
***
I think there’s a whole world between watch TV/ play
video games and “put learning ideas into their heads”
as you put it. I think that unschooling means that you
lead full, rich, interesting lives and learning
happens. So if you want your kids to watch less TV,
think of what fun things you could do together.
What would you do if you had guests visiting from out
of town? Would you go to museums, picnics, movies?
What do you do on vacations? Try not to think in terms
of learning. Think instead in terms of what you and
the kids would enjoy doing.
***
I would suggest substituting the word “fun” for “learning”. Your kids ARE
learning everyday, all the time. They are problem-solving, figuring out social
ammenities, making plans, figuring out how to carry those out. They are
learning about right and wrong, thinking about what God/Goddess might looks like
(if they are inclined that way).
A few lessons that you DON’T want them to
learn is that learning is boring, somebody else is in control of it and that it
only happens at certain times, doing certain things.
So have fun. Suggest cool things to do. Go for a hike, make baklava, read
African legends, watch lots of tv in your pajamas while eating ice cream. Talk
about things you/they notice…like the bird you saw looked like a wren but with
different coloring, that saying “baklava” sounds like you are coughing, etc..
Think of the things you/they notice as little dots of illumination into the
world. Keep having fun, keep laughing and eventually those little dots start to
make connections to each other. It doesn’t happen so much in a few months but
in the course of years as your children grow and start to see the world at
different levels of understanding.
***
I was just where you are about three weeks ago, so I’m probably not the best
person to ask about how to unschool. We’re still deschooling, and I’m thinking
unschooling won’t be much different in our home.
I was just this morning
telling a newbie school-at-home mom heading for burnout what we do, so I’ll post
what I told her, because it shows how we’re starting to let go. Maybe it’ll
help, maybe not.
We do a lot of day-to-day things, like errands and such.
We’re down to one car that dh uses to get to work right now, so we don’t go to
museums or parks (it’s too cold to walk anywhere here!) or much other
“interesting” stuff. It’s ok for us, because there’s plenty of time for that.
I stick to the practical due to necessity.
But the kids have learned about
reduce/reuse/recycle when it comes to Christmas presents this year! They’ve
amazed me with what they’ve come up with for gifts. They come up with the idea
and carry it through to the end all on their own, without any money
at all. But here’s what I had to say to the other mom about our deschooling
experience so far.
We’re deschooling right now and loving it! It’s so much less taxing on
everyone than when we started out in Sept. as gung-ho homeschoolers. I got
burnt out within a month and wondered what I was doing wrong. The kids rebelled
even though I gave them choices.
Then I just sat back and let the kids lead,
and there’s so much of a difference in their behavior and attitude and
creativity that I am astounded.
For example – They played CSI last week (must
be my CSI/Law & Order habit is rubbing off on them,) and they interviewed me
last week CSI-style and collected evidence (including my hair) and viewed it
under a microscope and found a murder weapon and figured out my motive. It was
just too cool! They were typing away on the play laptop entering notes and
looking up pretend info on the case. They took my fingerprints, though I only
let them have one because I didn’t want inky fingers all day.
They have never
done anything like this play before, and I wouldn’t have considered it
learning before now, either. It took me a lot of courage to start unschooling,
and the worst part is explaining it to others (which I avoid-ignorance is
bliss.) But if you find you’re fighting or burnt out, it’s worth a try. The
kids still learn, but it’s on their terms and their timing and their way. Trust
is the key.
***
don’t keep “records”…how about keep memories instead?:)
I think one of the best things we’ve done, is take lots of photos,
write journal entries etc…about our LIVES.
I was amazed this week, as we read some old journals, about all the
cute things the kids had done that I’d forgotten.
Write down the funny things they say, write down the “aha” moments,
the connections between family members, the tough days…write it
all down, even briefly and you’ll be amazed at the lovely stories
you collect.
The kids love looking through our old photo albums. Sometimes we get
inspired all over again! They were looking at the butterfly release
they’d done and asked if we could raise more butterflies. I
mentioned incubating eggs again and Jared said “It was such a PAIN
though!” :)
So keeping track of your bubbly, interesting life is well worth the
time, and will usually suffice if any official needs some kind
of “proof” (which I doubt you’ll ever have to deal with).
***
Don’t just tolerate it – EMBRACE it!
Quit waiting for it to END, start participating, supporting,
encouraging, facilitating, expanding their tv/video lives – NOW.
Get so involved and busy and enchanted with what they ARE doing that
you stop wishing they’d be doing something else.
THAT is unschooling.
I’ve been thinking that I never liked the term “child-led learning” -
because it seems to make people expect their kids to eventually pull
math books off the shelves.
I don’t like hearing unschooling equated
with unstructured – because it assumes that school/lessons/
assignments/tests/grades are the only kind of structure that counts,
while the wonderful varied structures of our real lives don’t.
And
now I also have come to dislike the term “relaxed,” when applied to
unschoolers because, well, first of all, MY family’s lifestyle is not
very relaxed – we’re high-energy, active and sometimes over-busy
people who have to make a conscious effort to take time to relax.
But, second, putting an emphasis on “relax” seems to encourage people
to be less pro-active, less hands-on, and less involved with their kids.
Yes, I’ve MANY times suggested that parents need to “relax.” But I
meant to stop worrying, to develop a more relaxed MENTAL attitude
about what the kids are learning. If people thought I meant “relax
and be less involved with the kids” then I take it back.
Get in touch, get connected – do it by developing an interest in what
your kids ARE interested in already – not by “offering” stuff to
them, not by trying to entice them to be interested in something
else. START WHERE THEY ARE RIGHT NOW! They don’t need to “change” in order to be ready to start unschooling.
***
But I am not interested in video games/tv. Should I fake it? Doesn’t
this work both ways. I am not trying to lead them away from their
interests. I am trying to expand their world. I don’t force them, I
just offer, but they wont even consider these options. I know there are
other things out there they would enjoy if they just tried. I KNOW it.
They are just timid.
It is wonderful that your family is so active. That is my whole point.
Ours is not. How can I relax? If I was any more relaxed I would be
dead.
***
> But I am not interested in video games/tv. Should I fake it?
Develop an interest. If that means fake it a bit then, yes, I think
you should.
> Doesn’t this work both ways.
You’re the parent.
> I am not trying to lead them away from their
> interests.
Yes you are. Your focus is on expanding their experiences by doing
“other” things.
> I am trying to expand their world.
Right. But you’re doing it by trying to entice them to do OTHER
things. I’m saying do it by starting with what they are into right
now. Start with that and you’ll find that their interests will
naturally expand.
> I don’t force them, I just offer, but they wont even consider
> these options. I know there are
> other things out there they would enjoy if they just tried. I KNOW
> it. They are just timid.
I’m sure you’re right. So what? Being right doesn’t change the
reality that they don’t want to do these other things you’re offering.
>
> It is wonderful that your family is so active. That is my whole
> point.
> Ours is not. How can I relax? If I was any more relaxed I would be
> dead.
Don’t relax – get INTO what they’re into. Support it. Expand on IT!
***
First – you’re exaggerating – they do NOT do the same thing 24 hours
a day, 7 days a week. It’ll help if you’re accurate.
Second, are you talking about me, personally? What does that matter?
The answer would be different at different times of my life.
But, for my KIDS – the answer is that there have been times that they
watched tv for hours and hours, day after day. There have been times
when they were online talking to friends for hours and hours and
hours, day after day. And there have been times they’ve played
videogames – most notably they’ve play SIMS, hour after hour after
hour, day after day.
When my youngest was REALLY into watching Nick at Night tv shows – I
stayed up and watched with her and when The Cosby Show was one of
them, I bought us tickets to go SEE Bill Cosby live at our county
fair. I found copies of the old Bill Cosby comedy albums that I’d
listened to as a kid. And I got a copy of his book, Fatherhood, which
I read but I don’t think any of the kids did. When it turned out the
kids LIKED the old Bill Cosby stand-up comic albums, I told them
about other comedians I’d liked as a kid and we listened to those. We
started watching some comedians on tv.
Sometimes the steps to something new and different aren’t big ones -
sometimes they’re not steps at all, but just a slight turning around
and looking in a bit of a different direction.
We were in a seriously heavy tv-watching mode and got started
watching West Wing. That has SLOOOOOOOWLY led to an interest in
government – California had a special election last month and one of
my daughters got more interested in that than she’d ever been in
political stuff, before. The other day I noticed an article about our
governor having appointed a new chief of staff — I read it out loud
to my daughter because I knew that SHE knew the important role of a
chief of staff – because of West Wing AND because our Republican
governor had appointed a radically left-wing liberal FEMALE and
openly lesbian chief of staff and I thought that was interesting.
My point is that I didn’t try to get them to do something ELSE
besides watch tv – I looked at what they were doing and enjoyed it
with them, supported it, and added to it and let new interests unfold
naturally.
***
No, it doesn’t work both ways. It is not their job to support your interests.
You are an adult, you can do that yourself. It is your job to support their
interests. I’m sorry you would have to fake being interested in coming into
your children’s world. My little boy likes cars. I don’t care about cars, but
I love watching HIM enjoy them, it is fun to nurture his interests. The fun
isn’t in the cars, it is in spending time with HIM.
***
If you’re concerned about your kids not having enough going on in
their lives, and the kids don’t seem interested in adding more to
their lives, then the answer you’re getting is to get more involved
in what they are ALREADY interested in, and then you’ll be able to
see how to expand from there.
> I don’t want them to SUPPORT my interests.
You asked if it goes both ways – the answer is no, since THEY aren’t
concerned about you, right?
> I just want them to be as
> open minded to new stuff as I am being with them.
I know – it is natural to want that. But you can’t “make them” be
interested in other things just because you want them to be.
> To see and do new things, and if they aren’t interested, fine.
Can you bribe them a bit? I mean – If there is something you’re
really sure they’d enjoy if they’d just try it, can you offer them
some incentive?
***
We just live in one big world. We don’t separate it in any way.
I do things with them. They do things with me. We do things together.
Big world.
***
There aren’t “adult worlds” and “children worlds” in unschooling
families, I don’t think – but each “person” sort of has his/her own
world, I suppose.
My husband’s world includes of a lot of international soccer -
entering his world means watching some soccer games with him, going
to an occasional live soccer game, listening with interest when he
talks about things happening in the international soccer world.
My 18 yo’s world consists of a lot of musical theater and a lot of
literature. Being part of her world means watching and listening to a
lot of shows with her, listening with interest as she talks and talks
and talks about the subject, helping her get to auditions and
lessons. It also means I sometimes read books that I haven’t read,
because she needs/wants someone to talk to about them. I just read
“Lolita” because she’s been talking about it so much, recently. Now
we’re both reading another book by Nabakov.
When my kids were littler, being part of their world might have meant
playing with them or reading books to them or listening to their
music and dancing around the house with them or watching tv shows
that they loved or going to movies they wanted to see or building
with legos together or painting with watercolors or folding origami
objects or going on a hike or on and on. A parent unwilling or
uninterested in being much of a part of their child’s world is not a
good candidate for unschooling, I don’t think.
A child being part of an adult’s world can mean that when I’m cooking
dinner I don’t shoo the kids away, but make them welcome to help or
hang out. It can mean that when I’m crocheting and my daughter wants
to learn, I stop and teach her. It can mean that I share my love for
cello music by putting on a cd in the car.
So – it isn’t “either/or” – but a sharing of our lives.
***
“Get so involved and busy and enchanted with what they ARE doing that
you stop wishing they’d be doing something else.
THAT is unschooling.”
YES.
That too.
I didn’t say anything about the tv/video part, only the outings….but
embracing ANY and EVERY interest they have is a huge part of
unschooling.
That includes tv.
***
Watch the videos and programs with them. Discuss the programs. Make some
popcorn or brownies or whatever to eat during the programs. Set out some fun
toys for them to mess around with while they watch. Also lots of comfy
blankets, pillows etc… Don’t plan trips unless you first check to see if
they want to go. I wouldn’t want to go to a movie premier party with people I
barely know either. With rare exception, I would almost always rather wait for
the dvd to come out.
I would be checking into a memebership to blockbuster or netflix or something
and would be ordering movies, lots of them, all kinds, some of my favorites that
I liked as a kid, old classics, new releases. Embrace their interest, maybe see
about a digital video camera. Maybe they would like to make a movie
themselves????? Sometimes after my kids have seen the movie, they enjoy
hearing the book, sometimes not. Some movies/tv series have games to go alongwith them. There is nothing to wait for, life is what is happening right now.
***
***But I am not interested in video games/tv. Should I fake it? ***
Can you sit down with them and fold laundry or crochet or something while
they watch? Then you’re there, interacting with them, hearing about what
they think the good bits are but you have something to do too.
***I know there are other things out there they would enjoy if they just
tried. I KNOW it.
They are just timid.***
They’re young. There’s lots of time for them to discover the world. If
this is what they really like right now it’s ok.
It’s really very cool that you have a house they like to be in. Some
kids can’t wait to get out.
Keep offering things you think they would enjoy but don’t attach yourself
to their response. Let it be ok to accept or decline.
***It is wonderful that your family is so active. That is my whole
point.
Ours is not. How can I relax?***
Some people are naturally more adventurous than others. Are there other
people in your family who are content to stay home? Maybe your kids have
a genetic component of homebodieness. <g>
But what your kids are doing today is not “who” they are. They are
complex people who will grow and change. Some interests last forever but
people seldom have only one interest their whole lives long. You’re kids
will try new things when they’re ready.
***If I was any more relaxed I would be
dead.***
If we don’t hear from you in awhile we’ll send someone over to check your
pulse. <g>
***
I have to admit, I LOVE video games where the point is to crash the
car. :) We have one where the car actually bursts into flames then
burns up if you run it into buildings or other vehicles enough times.
I find it very satisfying. lol.
We actually haven’t played any video games in a while. The kids seem
to go in spells. A solid week of video games from dawn to dusk, then
a week of legos, then a week of paper mache and paint. Hammers,
nails, hot glue… *things*.
My son will build something big enough to live in out of cardboard
while my daughter is sewing curtains, modifying her clothes, or
rehairing My Little Ponies for example. There are odd smaller things
thrown in, and we always make park days, but there is usually
something where the primary focus is for days on end. We have a lot
of overlap where we enter and exit each others’ projects, and do a lot
of things together… and do spend time in the same room doing
different things.
Have you tried blasting music and jumping up and down together?
That’s a fun family activity. Leads to lots of giggles and silliness
together. lol. You can’t help but be in a good mood after that! (In
fact, it’s gotten to the point here that if I’m getting a little
grumpy, one of the kids will put on a “jumping around” song knowing it
will work some magic and make our day go better.)
***
One time, years ago, a friend’s son LOVED Nintendo games. He played
them for hours and hours every day. He was 7, 8, 9 years old. He
TALKED about them when he wasn’t playing them. It was so boring to ME
that I’d almost want to cry from boredom when he’d get started, but
his mom made the effort to really listen, to learn, to think about
what he was saying, so that she could ask intelligent questions and
make reasonable responses. One day she suggested he might want to
video tape himself playing a game. (Just something a little different
to do.) So he did that – and then he wanted me to WATCH the video
he’d made of himself playing a Nintendo game. YIKES! So i watched a
bit, because I like this kid and wanted to be supportive. But his mom
watched a LOT of it.
These days that kid makes movies, creates games, and also does all
KINDS of other things.
Was his mom “faking it” when she showed interest in his Nintendo game
playing? Maybe a bit – but mostly she kind of talked herself into
finding a way to appreciate it BECAUSE it was what her son was
interested in.
***
“I buy the games, I tell him about new games, I signed him on to
unschooling-gamers. I just don’t want to play it.”
And that’s ok. We aren’t all going to like the exact games our
children love…but if you’re supporting the interest by asking them
about it, buying the things they love, showing you care about the
things they love, that’s GOOD!
I think maybe the time expectations are hard. I’ve had to re-
evaluate my own feelings again, since the conference.
I had a bubbly, interesting, outgoing teen up until we moved here.
He’s still interesting, but doesn’t seem as bubbly anymore…that’s
because he’s spending every single waking moment (aside from eating
or pooping) online with his friends.
This is a new thing for him again….and it’s not because video
gaming or computer use has been limited for him in years and years.
It’s because he’s very into his friends now, and most all of them
are miles away. The online gaming is something he loves, and it’s a
way for him to connect with friends he loves.
I trust this is exactly what he needs right now.
He has other offers, none of them have been as enticing as being
online with his friends! So the rest of us go and do stuff WE want
to do. It’s all good.
The time since the conference isn’t very long.
I think that’s a good start for deschooling really…I had to count
all over again when I started unschooling, even though we’d been
homeschooling for many years. Once I stopped pushing and being
negative about their choices, the unschooling began to unfold in
beautiful ways…but it took a while.
It was over a year of very concentrated tv viewing, before they
started to trust me. A few months isn’t very long.
Keep trusting him. I know it’s hard, but he is fine. He’s happy
enough with his choices right now….I think he’ll grow more
confident, as he learns that you’re only offering things for fun,
not for some ulterior motive. Keep doing the things you love, keep
offering, keep going places with the younger one that he
loves…keep trusting the process.
***
<<I just don’t want to play it>.
Then don’t. I don’t play video games with my kids. I wouldn’t play it with my
dh or with friends either. They simply don’t interest me at all. When the kids
want me to watch something or to tell me about something from the game, I watch
or listen. I root for them during a battle and I sympathize when the cheat
books seems my child’s only option <grin>.
We do have other things we do together, but not everything. Our interests are
kind of like ven grams, circles somewhat overlapping each other, but not
completely.
However, that said, I think the issue is really more about relationship than
about a specific interest. My kids and I have a really strong connection to
each other. We love, talk, get irritated, get over, etc. all with great
abandon. So sharing a particular interest doesn’t seem like a big deal.
But….if I felt my relationship with any of my children was strained, if I felt
disconnected from them, I would be willing to do ANYTHING necessary to make that
connection….even playing “Lego’s Star Wars”.
***
