I’d wonder what he’s getting out of it. Is he curious about sex? Just
about what porn is? Is he actually interested in having a sexual
relationship?

I can say that Josh has looked at porn online. He hasn’t been ready
to talk about it. My husband’s mother was much the same, and dh says
that it was the best thing, he could talk to her about anything. As a
result, he was able to have access to what he needed, and engaged in
only two relationships, both very serious and both planned out.

My friends son was doing the same thing, and got a bunch of spyware
on his computer, so I can be thankful that we haven’t had to deal
with that. Dh upgraded our fire wall just in case. Josh knows that he
can talk to me about anything disturbing, and because we’ve pretty
much uncovered all the secrets of sex, he knows if/when things are
exaggerated or just wrong.

—

Well, as far as the spyware and viruses he is pretty good about that.
He’s very computer savvy and does system checks frequently on his
own.
He may be getting more curious about sex than he has been in the
past, or maybe just porn. I’m not sure. We have always had open
discussions about sex and he has asked a lot of questions. I have
never shyed away from the topic. I guess I’m more concerned about
what it is he is seeing. It’s pretty explicit stuff. The internet has
no boundaries as far as that stuff goes. It can be down right
shocking.
And actually he didn’t come right out and tell me, I’m sorry to say.
I found the websites in the drop box of internet explorer. I’m not
sure whether to even mention it or not. I feel that he has the right
to privacy but I would also like to have an open discussion about it.

—

Steven (14) says that it is highly likely
he is finding things while looking for other things.
Some of his suggestions for easily finding porn
included searching for cheat codes, serial numbers to
play games, flash or online games, and how to make a
bomb type instructions.
His other suggestion was to stop using IE because
there is a risk of phishing more predominantly at
websites that have a possibility of having flash or
other porn.
One thing he has seen is while playing a free online
strategy game, he found a banner ad for obscene Cosmo
magazine.
If he is specifically going to porn sites (grayvee.com
or diablobabes.com for example) then its a personal
thing that he WANTS to look at them.
Those are his thoughts, porn is harder to avoid than
find. I even found something looking for rag rug
making instructions once!

—

Simon hasn’t yet. He’s 10 and he isn’t particularly interested, yet. I figure
there will come a day. He has had friends over who are quite interested in naked
women. And Linnaea, who is 7, has played Barbie doll games that have some adult
scenes going on, and has worked really hard to get her Sims to “woohoo” on the
Sims2. Oh, and we have Leisure Suit Larry for the PS2, which they haven’t played
for ages, but which was sort of fun for a little while. Sex and sexual imagery
just isn’t quite fascinating, yet.

I would be most worried about the computer being vulnerable to trojans <BWG>
and other sorts of computer STD’s that might be an issue than I would be about
the exposure to naked folk. I’d make sure I had really good firewalls and up to
date virus software. From my teen years I have some pretty sexually explicit
comic books, and some nice books of nudes, I might hunt through all the boxes
from move after move and see if I could put my hands on those. I don’t know that
I would make a big deal out of it, but I’d probably put them somewhere that I
know he’d see them and I wouldn’t mention it. I would talk to him about Chris
Langham and the trouble he got into for downloading images of children to his
computer and how there are images that are available via the internet that could
get him into seriously hot water. He needs to tread carefully if accessing
nudity via the internet. That’s what I would point out.

—

He is probably curious and has questions. Talk with him. It is possible he
did not realize what he was clicking on. Talk with him. Whether he got there
by searching for it or by accident might give you a guide as to what his
questions might be. Keep your cool. Talk more.

—

Kids & Porn is a post from: Unschooling4Life.com: Information about unschooling

—

Kindness
Generosity
Patience
Trust
Respect for ourselves and others
Gentleness with animals
Thoughtfulness
Safety
Honesty
Flexibility
Courtesy
Gratefulness
Empathy

There may be some others, but these jumped out of my head immediately.

—

How do you implement those principles?

I still struggle with my boys punching each other :( I say, “don’t hit,
use your words!” and they still whack each other.

My oldest also has a tendency to want whatever his brothers have. It
annoys me very much because they are younger and have little in
comparison to him yet he’s grabbing their stuff. DS is still going
through deschooling, so is it related to destressing from school? Or is
it he is jealous of them?

—

“We are kind and gentle with each other.”

“It’s my job to make sure *each and every ONE* of you feels safe in
this house.”

And you need to be close by. Why are they left alone long enough for
things to escalate to punching?

Sandra told her boys there are three steps:

1) talk it out
2) if that doesn’t work, get an adult to help you work it out
3) if that doesn’t work, you can hit each other

BUT! They have to go through steps one and two FIRST! <G>

—

I have the same policy for them, #1 talk it out, #2 ask mom for help.
As for leaving them alone, that annoys me to no end because no parent
ever is right there supervising their children eyeball to eyeball 24/7.
The moment I look away somebody comes up to me saying he hit me! I am
so irritated and frustrated with them about that.

One time the oldest punched one of his twin brothers in the nose so hard
it bled. We were in the van driving back home from school and I normally
have my rearview mirror planted square on them, but this time I
concentrated on traffic until I saw the tussle in the back. I
immediately pulled over and told DS to get out of the van. He asked if I
was going to leave him, I said no. He had to stay and wait while I
cleaned up his brother. I told him that I can’t allow him back in if
he’s going to be a danger to his brother. I let him back in after he
apologized and after he answered affirmatively my question of whether
he’s going to be safe with his brothers.

I still feel angry over this. I’ve tried explaining things over and over
and I did the same #1 #2 policy in my own accord. It’s not working.

I feel angry about oldest DS’s tendency to take things away from his
twin brothers. It’s constant competition and jealousy and I do NOT want
this for them. I want peace in my house. :(

Ok venting over – I think the big issue here is that I’m Deaf and they
do not sign when they’re quarreling. So how can I intervene when I can’t
catch when things are escalating? (Why my children don’t sign all the
time is a long story and something I wish did not happen.) Often oldest
DS says one of his (4 yr old) brothers has said something that he
disagreed with and I ask him if whacking him solved the problem.

I think the issue here is that he’s outnumbered – the twins are close to
each other and he’s alone. We also have a lot of things shared in
common. He’s had “his” things before but as the twins grow into his
stuff things get a little mixed up. He grabs their things as well.

I’m guessing a solution would be to establish separate toy bins for each
boy and have their names on them, and separate items for each of them?
This way they can have true ownership and feel free to share… And
instead of doing the steps which aren’t working, I would try the “we are
kind to each other” tack. Any more suggestions?

—

Don’t be irritated with them! See it as a cry for help. They don’t
know what to do or how to solve the problem.

They’re in a mindset that says “If I don’t grab what I want then I’m
not going to be able to get it.”

You need to help them out of that.

You’re in a mindset that you need to stop the hitting. What will help
is looking past the hitting to what’s causing the hitting. Obviously
stop the hitting but then focus on the problem. You’re turning the
hitting into the problem and the original problem is probably getting
lost in the confusion. Focus on the original problem. Help them
figure out how to fix that. Help them know that you want to help
everyone get what they need *and* feel safe.

Rather than focusing on changing them from kids who hit to kids who
don’t hit, help them find ways not to hit. When they hit it’s a cry
for help. They really don’t know what else to do. Telling them not to
is obviously not working.

Focus on what led up to the hitting. If it’s toys they’re fighting
over, help them figure out ahead of time ways to not fight over the
toys. Involve them all in helping solve the problem and listen to
their ideas. If the ideas don’t pan out, help them revise them and
think up new ideas.

The transition period is rough. They’re used to fighting to get their
needs met. They’re going to hear your attempts at helping them
problem solve as just new ways to say “Stop hitting and fix this
problem now.” It will take a while until they gain confidence that
you really are committed to helping them get what they want.

—

> Irritated and frustrated that someone came to you for help?

I’d be fine with them coming up to me for help but I feel like on this
issue we have talked it into a morass, where no one seems to be
listening to each other and people are still getting hit.

I feel those emotions because we’ve gone through this over and over
again. “Please don’t hit your brother, it hurts. When your brother is
done with the toy, you can have it. What time will you be done with
this toy? Let him have the toy, it is his turn. So what if your
brother said no over something that doesn’t make sense? Does he have
control over that and does hitting him solve the problem?”

> It’s a small house, right? How far can you actually BE from them?

I used to physically separate them into time-outs but since I hurt my
back and snapped my ACL I’ve been unable to get into the thick of things
without getting hurt myself. I have to yell to stop things from a
distance and even then it doesn’t work. So I feel powerless too. :( I’m
laid up now, just finished with ACL reconstruction surgery.

> So it *is* a fear.
> Whether he’s lying or not?

How could I have approached this situation better, then? There was blood
all over his brother’s face and we were heading towards a construction
zone. They were fighting because the twin had said no and pouted over
something, both had been hitting on each other. There are real-world
consequences to beating up people – including lock-up. My thinking was,
remove the aggressor from the situation NOW. Then clean up and talk
about it. I am out of ideas if this only creates a revenge complex in
them :(

> Change the anger to curiosity.

It is difficult because I feel stumped on this. I’ve read the Siblings
Without Rivalry book, joined this list, consensual living, read all I
could and I’m still not getting it right.

> Why do they feel compettitive and jealous? What is causing that?

The bad old days I think. :( There were major power and control issues
going on in our home until DH and I separated abt 2 years ago. Since
then he’s gone to counseling but DS has grown up in that environment and
I really want to change that.

> Yeah—but how is that helping them?

I thought it’s help him see the futility of that option. It’s difficult
if I’m out of ideas myself too. Maybe it’ll be different after each of
them has their own space?

You know it just occurred that maybe because DS has more options
compared to the twins (one said recently, “I want to be homeschooled!”)
and because DS tries to control them, they feel powerless. So they hold
onto “insignificant” things like toys or verbal comments because that’s
where they feel like they have control. The twins are still in
preschool and my mother was just telling me about how the teacher needs
to keep order, etc. DS also probably feels powerless himself from when
he was in school.

I’m not perfect myself either, and the kids copy my mistakes. My
thinking is away from the “control kids” model but when things get
stressful I find my ideas and options narrowing down.

Let’s take one difficult situation for example -

DS likes to sing in the van. I am unaware of this unless I see his mouth
moving and head bobbling. Singing does not bother me. Everything would
be fine and dandy if DS didn’t insist he sings alone or has total
silence instead. The end result is usually a lot of drama. I don’t
have a means for monitoring volume in the van.

Any suggestions on how to defuse this?

—

> I still struggle with my boys punching each other :( I say, “don’t
> hit,
> use your words!” and they still whack each other.

Apparently they need more help. You’re seeing the world through your
eyes and wondering why they can’t too. See the world through their eyes.

Assume they’re doing the best they can. The advice you’re giving them
obviously is not working for them to solve the problem. If I’d kept
asking my sister to give something to me when we were kids and she
wouldn’t .. then what? If mom said only use words and didn’t give me
a tool to use after the words had failed it would be maddening. I’d
want to smack her! ;-) What other choice would I have when the only
tool she’d given me had failed?

Sandra Dodd had 3 steps:

1) talk it out
2) get an adult to help
3) then hit

She has a lot of good writing at:

http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting

Also you need to be present more. Mindful parenting isn’t a list of
rules to hand to kids and send them off with. Be their partner in
helping them get what they want. Rather than seeing situations as
something to fix, figure out ways to *help* them get what they want.
It’s a subtle but important role shift.

> My oldest also has a tendency to want whatever his brothers have. It
> annoys me very much because they are younger and have little in
> comparison to him yet he’s grabbing their stuff.

What you’ve written dismisses his feelings. He has a need and he’s
trying to fulfill it and you’re blowing off his need because they’re
younger and he’s older. That’s not only maddening but whittling away
at your relationship with him. He sees you putting them ahead of him.

Separate his need from his actions. Don’t dismiss his need just
because he doesn’t have the tools to meet it. *Help* him meet it.

That’s doesn’t mean everyone will get what they want immediately. But
help them build trust in you that you will work hard to help
*everyone* get what they want.

The reason kids keep fighting over something they want is because
they’ve learned from past behavior that’s the only way to get it.
Give them the confidence that their needs are important to you and
you will help them.

—

And, again, don’t think of those as rules. You aren’t going to *make*
your kids be thoughtful. It isn’t a standard that you’ll make them
live up to.

Be thoughtful toward them. You can also help them think up ways you
can both do something thoughtful for someone else who has done nice
things for you. (And if they don’t want to, you do it because it’s
important to you to be thoughtful. If you don’t want to do it on your
own, you shouldn’t be making them do it! Do it because you feel it’s
the right thing to do, not because it’s a lesson you want to impose
on your kids. *Live* your principles.)

Live these. Use these in your interactions with them and others. Help
them use them as tools to figure out problems. That’s what they are:
tools to help us decide if something is in keeping with our philosophy.

Here’s something I wrote a bit ago:

No right or wrong way to unschool
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/unschooling/noonerightwaytounschool.html

—

Principles is a post from: Unschooling4Life.com: Information about unschooling

So…I have a 17 year old – the one I want to unschool – who I am learning
to “unparent” (not my favorite term, but ya’l know what I mean, I hope). I have
lifted his curfew, we talked about responsibility to one’s self and with
freedom, comes different types of responsibilities. I am alone in this, as I am
with much of my wild parenting style ;) So…support? Thoughts? Ideas?

—

I have mixed feelings about this one- The easy thing is to say obey
the law but then there are ways around that and he would have access
to it in hiding which leads to pretending and not being able to get
help in case he drank too much.

—

You and your son don’t seem to yet have a very trusting relationship. From
what you’ve written previously he seems to think you are a bit mad and a bit
irresponsible. I don’t know if his sense of you and, given what you’ve
written, his sense of himself is a sense that will produce a responsible
social drinker.

That said, I don’t really believe that there is a lot you can do to control
someone’s actions when you aren’t around. It seems that if you can make sure
he knows you will come and get him if he is too drunk to cope, if you won’t
judge him, if he won’t be in trouble, it may go a long way to helping him to
see how much you are willing to support him.

Personally, my two children are being raised in a household with two parents
who drink a glass of something most evenings. David (dh) brews his own beer.
Simon (ds) has made his own apple cider, it didn’t quite hit hard cider.
Both Simon and Linnaea have tried alcoholic drinks and, while Linnaea enjoys
the occasional sip of mead and Simon likes very slightly alcoholic cider,
they really don’t like drinking. They are only 10 and 7, so there isn’t the
hanging out with friends, having an illicit drink sort of appeal, but they
are growing up in a household where illicit drinking is unlikely to be that
appealling or really that illicit.

So, I guess I don’t know. I suppose it might be a good step in your
relationship with your son, but it may just go further to confirm his
feelings that you are a loosey-goosey parent <grin>.

—

Teens WILL experiment—not nececssarily with drugs or drinking or sex,
but with *many* different life choices. That’s what they do.

If it’s forbidden, they will sneak it. If they’re sneaking it, they’re
NOT going to tell their parents when they are in trouble. If they trust
their parents completely, they WILL call when they are in difficult
situations.

It’s *much* more important to me that Cameron be SAFE. Everything else
works around that premise. He *has* called us when he was high to
either ask for a ride home or to tell us he was staying the night. He
knows how much we value him and his safety. I don’t want him arrested
or dead in an alley or by the side on the road. We’ve talked about not
buying pot from people he doesn’t know, about keeping his paraphenalia
well-hidden, about being very careful where and with whom he smokes.

I never agreed to buy him stuff, but Cam and I talked about not buying
from strangers and buying organic whenever possible. I wouldn’t hand
him a fifth of vodka and say, “Go for it”—but we do talk about high
end beers and wines and liquors vs. rot gut.

He got drunk with three friends on his 15th birthday. Dangerously
drunk. Ironically, it was a sobering experience—he now drinks very
little. A very occasional beer or glass of wine at home or other safe
environment.

He told me yesterday that he was uncomfortable being around a lot of
his friends now because they ALL want to be drunk or high all the time.
He knows he doesn’t need that, and he doesn’t like to hang around with
them now because of that. (All these guys are/were schooled with
parents who don’t understand them.) He’s struggling with this right now
and trying to find some folks he’s more comfortable with.

The question to you becomes: What will you do/say when you find him
with alcohol?

Your answers will tell a lot about how you feel about it. If you can
verbalize to HIM—AND follow through *to the letter*—what you will
do/say the *first* time, he *may* start to believe you.

But poking around his things to see whether he *was* drinking the night
before will not win you trust points. Neither will asking whether he
was drinking or how drunk he got. But BEing there for him time and time
again WILL show him you trust him.

I dropped Cameron off one time at a concert and said, “If you’re going
to get high, please be smart and careful—and call me if you need me.”
He laughed and said that all the other parents were probably saying,
“Don’t get high!!!” <g> He appreciated that I was realistic. He KNEW he
could count on me.

Ironically, he’s never (knock on wood) had any incidents with the law
or been in any dangerous situations (well, except for that drunk night
on his birthday). Every one of his friends and cousins has been
arrested or in a dangerous spot. Buying pot from an undercover cop,
DUI, drug paraphenalia found in their cars or dorm rooms, rehab, beaten
up by a dealer—all SORTS of stuff! ANd these are all *GOOD* kids.
They’re just doing stupid stuff—and aren’t in a position to tell
their parents/ask for help.

Cameron’s safety is THE most important thing to me—and he knows it.
I’m sure it was hard for him to call us the first time; but when we did
what we said we would do—with no shaming or anger, just relief that
he’d called us, he knew he could trust us. We *NEVER* let him
down—not once!

—

To me this is part of the whole issue we have here in America (maybe
other places too I don’t know!) with infantilizing our young adults.
It irks me to no end! Times past 17 was manhood, now it’s still
kidhood…Only problem is biology doesn’t fluccuate with out cultural
whims so we get dissention in our families…grrr…And I’m sorry that
wasn’t your question & I don’t mean to sound like a Pink Floyd song so
end rant :)

I personally do not get the hangup with drinking at all. Getting drunk
is a whole ‘nother issue, just a totally bad idea for anyone imho. If
it were my 17yo I’d say consider the law & be prepared to take whatever
the underage drinking consequences are like a man. If you wanna make
that choice enjoy a couple of drinks, have fun and keep your wits about
you so somebody doesn’t come to harm or worse. Just like a grown up…

How bizarre is it anyway?? Is there some magical biological twist of
the screw when they turn 18 (in near-beer states) or 21? Okay NOW you
can drink and it’s OKAY! Yesterday NO but today YES!! No wonder kids
think that’s dumb, it IS dumb!

—

I totally agree and get on that soap box often!

They can get a license to drive a 1,000 lb vehicle. They can get
married and hold jobs. They can buy houses and pay mortgages. They can
go to war and die for their country.

But they can’t buy a BEER??? It’s so ridiculous that it boggles the
mind.

—

I agree whole heartedly with Chris. If parents make a big deal out of
it, it is a big deal. If kids learn how to drink responsibly in their
own homes, it is much healthier. If their parents drink and the kids
see them drinking responsibly, then the kids get the idea from a young
age. Even more so if everytime they go out as a family the parents
choose a designated driver between them if they are going to go beyond
their safe limit (for me it would be one drink to feel impaired these
days!).

Different scenario of course for non-drinking parents but it can still
be modelled by family friends and relatives (hopefully healthily!)

—

Unfortunately, because of the weird societal issues around the use
of alcohol, for some people drinking is “about” getting drunk. My
stepson’s mom hangs out with the sorts of people for whom that’s the
purpose of drinking, so that’s the behavior he’s seen modelled.
That’s our main concern, and one we don’t have about Mo – she’s
being raised in an environment where she can see people drink
casually and responsibly.

So we’re taking things slowly with Ray, trying to “say yes more” and
model healthier behavior, while being concious of the fact that we
are imposing limits on him. We’re letting him taste beer and wine
and even hard liquor, but just taste. At some point we’ll start
letting him have a small glass of his own…but both George and I
are still sensitive to the fact that its us “letting” and wondering
how to move on from that. I have a definate sense that time and
increased overall trust and communication is a big part of this
process, but I really can’t articulate it past that.

—

Unfortunately, because of the law, you have to choose to ‘let’ him.
Your life/livelyhood is on the line!! You are the one who could get
thrown in jail, pay a fine, lose a job, or have to deal with CPS.
Personally, I don’t beleive in this law, I believe the forbidden
fruit theory… The law makes it something kids WANT to do just because
they are told they can’t. I also, don’t believe drinking is the
problem, getting drunk or drinking and driving is the problem. Why
don’t we make the laws to handle the true problem instead of punishing
everyone??
I wish they would revamp the laws to punish the true crime and the
true criminals. Sigh, But I can’t even change the thinking in my own
household. I don’t know what we are going to do when my DD gets older
and we have to cross that bridge. (maybe in a decade society will have
come around?!?)

Teens and Drinking is a post from: Unschooling4Life.com: Information about unschooling

My 4yo has been doing this quite a bit recently. This afternoon, he asked for
raisins and a peanut-butter apple. Ate the raisins, decided he didn’t want the
apple (already prepared, and pb apple doesn’t look so appetizing if you save it
for long) but asked for a peanut-butter rice cake instead. What I did was to
point out that I wasn’t comfortable wasting food, encouraged him to have the
apple instead, but when he really only wanted the rice-cake I did give it to
him. I also suggested that when he asks for food, I would ask him to stop and
really listen to his tummy and see if he really wanted it. He thought that was
a good idea, but mainly, it appeared to me, because it coincided with my giving
him the rice cake:-)

Anyway, wondering how others would have handled this.

—

Bite my tongue and put away the first food, giving them the second
request.:)
It’s all part of their learning experiences. Think about what a
nutrition curriculum would cost and then breathe a sigh of relief that
the food isn’t being “wasted” at all…just used for learning.

—

For me, I would trust that he would learn all the important stuff he
needs to know from living a joyful life with his honest, loving
adviser by his side (that’s you). In other words, I would trust that
he will, when he is ready to, make the connections about everything
(including the folly of wasting food). Until then, I have found it
to be very freeing to look at all the consumable resources (like
food, toilet paper, tape) as tools through which my son learns about
himself and his world. So what if an entire roll of toilet paper
goes to some other purpose than wiping butts? Or, a whole jar of
mustard gets used in some inedible concoction during an
“experiment”? Or any other resource, for that matter? I just go out
and buy another, and chalk it up to this joyful, unschooling life!

I highly doubt my son will be an adult who “wastes” food creating
weird experiments or uses up a whole roll of scotch tape making some
weird sculpture, but I bet he’ll turn a benevolent eye on *his* child
when my grandchild wants to experiment with food or tastes something
and doesn’t end up eating it or takes a new roll of paper towels
outside and tries to sop up the mud in the driveway with it just to
see what happens.

I figure that these kinds of messy culinary experiments are exactly
what we signed up for when we opted for an unschooling life! And,
trusting is the key!

(Truth be told, I really had to make a conscious shift in my attitude
when Liam was about 18 months old before I was able to let that stuff
go. Once I did, our lives got infinitely better!!)

—

Since it’s not really being “wasted”, he won’t have to learn that!!:;)

Seriously though, I DO make alternate suggestions when Jalen wants to
use strawberries (although he did make a strawberry concoction this
week, I just asked him to be a bit sparing with them) or other
expensive ingredients. We’re on a tight budget at the moment and I am
definitely aware of being thrifty.

I don’t make issue of food being “wasted” when someone is full…we
just feed it to someone else or the rat, or save it for later. Food is
MORE wasted by putting it into a body that doesn’t want it! Oh, and we
compost, so I don’t feel that anything is ever truly wasted, just used
differently.:)

Your child has a loving guide to help him discover all kinds of
information, including information about food. Children don’t have the
same priorities that adults do, and they shouldn’t! His job is to
explore the world, not worry about “wasting”. Our job is to help them
do that with the least coercion possible.

Some kids change their minds a LOT. Try having a lot of ingredients
prepared and ready so he can pick and choose a concoction at any
moment (or just snack off a prepared tray)

—

If it is an occasional thing – changing his mind – then I’d just
accommodate him.
If it is a common thing – when he asked for something, I’d suggest
some other possibilities, get him thinking before you go make it.
“Peanut Butter Apple? Or – do you think you might want PB on
something else? Maybe a rice cake? Or a banana?”

I would support him in thinking a little before the food appears,
rather than being inspired to consider other options when one option
is already in front of him.

—

We’ve struggled a bit with this recently since our budget has been
soooooo tight. Mo’s been wanting to make Krabby Patties, but not eat
them, so we’ve been looking for alternatives – making them with
crackers, getting really cheap buns or rolls, cutting bread into
quarters so we can make “more” with less materials, especially the
cheese (she doesn’t use meat, just cheese). Sometimes she’ll make
them with paper or cloth, but she’s really excited by the food
aspect.

I’ve been eating a lot of Krabby Patties – which has meant talking
with her about making them the way I want to eat them. Sometimes she
wants to experiment, though, so some end up in the compost.

The other night, right after dinner! she wanted to make a bunch of
KPs with crackers, but we were really low on cheese and didn’t know
if there would be money for another couple days. We do okay with
planning our food-use, but the KP thing sometimes throws a kink in
the system. We made the mistake of starting out trying to convince
her to make them with paper – bad idea! the conversation was heading
south quickly. She started breaking crackers, and I got an idea and
suggested we play “KaratE” Sandy Cheeks style with the crackers,
since we could stretch those more easily than the cheese. That was
perfect, she and I played at whacking the crackers into crumbs and
then Mo played vacuum-cleaner-dog to suck/lick them off the counter.
It was hysterical! So a potentially yucky scene turned into a barrel
of laughs for me and Mo together.

Part of what made it all work out was *me* looking for an underlying
need, rather than focusing just on what Mo was saying she wanted.
She wanted to play/experiment with food *and* she wanted to do
something nice with/for her mom. Once I figured out how to connect
with those needs, the matter of the KPs fell by the wayside.

—

Really! I wish dh would *get* this. He was “programmed” in school to
clean his plate, so he will keep eating until it’s all gone, whether he
wants it or not, then –ahem– get sick. That IS a waste of food,
because even HE doesn’t get any benefit from it. (and icky, too)
I believe it was Erma Bombeck who wrote about fussing over food…then
realizing that that’s why refrigerators were invinted. Granted, some
things don’t wait well, but even then, there’s nearly always something
you can do…like Ren said, feed it to the rat!

—

I don’t have much problem with kids changing their minds some. There will be
some ‘waste’ of food as they learn what they like and how to hear what their
bodies need and can hold. But there is a real problem for me with too many
changes: it’s too much work. I find that as we are struggling our way toward
real freedom for all of us (ds age 7, dd age 10, ds age 13, and me, the
middle-aged, tired single parent) that it’s too much work for me to make
everything they think of to eat, help all of them with all the ideas they have,
model generous cleanup of everything, empathize, play, and work!! No surprise
there. Even as I describe it and remember joyful days I can also hear the
resentment in my voice. I have had to give myself permission to be tired, to
refuse even reasonable requests if I can not say yes without severe stress, to
need a break. This is a hard journey for me. I forget to take care of myself and
we all suffer. But I know I must model that I am worthy of care
also, so sometimes I will reply to a changed food or activity request, ” I am
not able to do that right now. Go ahead and (get something else to eat, not
requiring my help/ get out that paint set, whatever). When I can help I will.”
They may pout which is hard on me. I also have a hard time with fluid bedtimes,
and here is why. As a single parent I used to get my much needed private time,
to think, read, pay bills, meditate, pray, write, in the middle of the night or
very early morning. Now my kids are choosing completely different schedules, so
my 13 yo ds wants to stay up until 3:00 am and sleep until noon, while my 7 yo
ds gets up at 7 or 8 after falling asleep in our family bed amongst the
late-night family reading or video whenever he can. He is sleep deprived, I
think but can not sleep late, never could. Then my dd, age 10 , says that the 13
yo gets ‘private mom time’ with me at night and the 7 yo gets it in the morning.
Her schedule of preference is to sleep from
midnight to 10. She is never awake when the boys aren’t around. And also a
challenge: there are no more hours left to fulfill my needs for adult
companionship or solitude. So how do I balance this? How did I get from food to
sleep…I guess because I haven’t learned how to balance all this.

—

Depends – I’ll often do smaller portions if I think he wants just a
taste of something fully prepared to get up again and make more if he
really loves it. A whole apple is a pretty big thing for a 4 yr old
tummy.

I’ll also ask DS (he’s almost 9) if he wants a drink of water while I
get him (whatever) it was – sometimes he was just thirsty but couldn’t
differentiate it from hungry. Also, sometimes, I’ll ask him to call his
tastebuds and double check how much of whatever it is they’ve asked for.
He pretends to dial a cellphone and talk with them – a useful tool when
he can’t decide what it is he wants to eat also. He’s been known to sit
at a table in a restaurant, hand to ear, talking to his tastebuds and
trying to decide what to order. We just wait for him and have the server
check back in a minute or two.

Your not comfortable with wasting food right now but you’ll probably way
less comfortable dealing with food related issues (over eating, under
eating, etc) later on. At 4 yrs old, the ‘idea’ of a peanut butter
apples is great but the reality is that it is large and a handful (or
small packet) of raisins is big enough to be filling for a while

Food Waste is a post from: Unschooling4Life.com: Information about unschooling

I do volunteer work,
but it is with battered women, so I can’t involve the kids there,
although I am sure that there are community programs where the kids
could get involved if we decided to go in that direction instead. I
am not super creative, although I can work a glue gun in a pinch,
but I don’t make my own furniture or clothes. We do enjoy our
children and like spending time with them, and as we are learning
more about unschooling we are shedding a lot of our prior notions
about what is kid stuff and what is for adults (although I still
can’t get hubby to let dear son use power tools—-he is 4)

So I guess I am wondering how average (god I hate that word) people
unschool. Do they? Or maybe this is also an opportunity to really
examine the “averageness” of our lives and make some changes? Are
there any reading materials that include how children are soaking up
knowledge in the midst of conventional life? Or are the featured
families I am reading about not the norm but the “goal”?

***

We don’t live on a farm or in a city – it’s 15-20 minutes to the
mall (and DS has his own Starbuck’s card lol). I WOH fulltime, DH is
fulltime at home with DS. Our days consist of lots of videogames
(both DH and DS love them, I’m just getting going on an old GameBoy
with Pokemon Ruby), movies, TV, occasional campfires in the back
yard (don’t forget the ‘smores!!), lots of time hanging out with our
games (both guys have Nintendo DSs and I have the GBA) at Starbucks.
We look at stars when the night sky is really clear – but we don’t
know all the constellations and we don’t (yet) have a super
telescope. Yesterday DH spent a good part of the day making a case
for his DS from duct tape (it’s pretty cool). DS and I want one too
so we’re going to Staples tonight to pick up multi colors of duct
tape. Most of what goes into blogs and postings are the “highlights”
and occasional “lowlights”, not the average days. I might post about
how DS did this or that cool thing but that’s one “postable” thing
among dozens of days.

A typical week is basically: I work, they game, housework gets done,
we eat on a fairly regular basis, grocery shopping gets done, we
watch movies/TV (old episodes of MASH and Monty Python are ‘hot’ at
our house right now), we play with the dog, watch the fish in the
fish tank (nothing ‘fancy’, some mollies, some neon tetras, and of
course the scum sucker fish), maybe play some board games. That’s
about it. Oh, we do have one ‘date night’ per week, that alternates
between DH and DS (I get 4 dates each month, they each get 2). When
DH and I go out, DS visits MIL and FIL.

I wouldn’t write off the kids being involved with your volunteer
work. Yes, they probably can’t come with you BUT they could
collect/donate toys for the kids of the women that come through the
shelter (for example).

You’re focusing on what you don’t have, don’t do, etc. What DO you
have? What DO you love? What DO the kids love? If there are things
you’d love to do but haven’t, look for ways to explore them. Big
exciting stuff all the time isn’t really typical as far as I’ve
seen. Curiousity about the whole world is. And when you’re curious
about everyone and everything, life really isn’t so boring -there’s
always something new to explore, do, learn – whether it’s clearing a
bit of backyard space for a firepit or learning how to make sushi or
shopping in an ethnic market or going to a park in a different part
of town. Your kids already know this, learn from them.

***

>> I do volunteer work,
> but it is with battered women, so I can’t involve the kids there,
> although I am sure that there are community programs where the
kids
> could get involved if we decided to go in that direction instead.

That’s something to look into if your kids are interested – maybe
see if there’s a food pantry associated with the shelter so all
y’all can work together.

But the overall question is more “are the kids bored”? Real life
isn’t always mile-a-minute excitement, and that’s a good thing. I
enjoy having long days of doing “nothing much” with my kids -
nesting.

That sort of thing doesn’t make good press, so it doesn’t get
written about much. Yesterday, my dd and I made playdoh and she and
Ray played on the new PS2 most of the day. She climbed trees and
spun on her sit-n-spin at various times, found a little mud to
smoosh, and dug a really nice hole in the sawdust pile. Ray worked
on making a spear and did some target-practice with it in between
playing on the PS2. That’s about it. Pretty normal day. We do have
some excitement now and then, but our life is pretty cozy, rather
than thrilling.

***

So your kids haven’t won the spelling bee, enrolled in college
at 12 and found a cure for cancer? You are not hosting cow milking lessons while
wearing your denim jumper? You and the kids did not build your home from the
plans on the back of a cereal box?

And, yet, some of us manage to unschool. :)

A dear unschooling friend and I joke that nobody really suspects what we are up
to. We look so white bread suburban it is ridiculous. She’s driving around in
her minivan and me in my (very used :) ) Volvo station wagon. The kids are being
carted to this event or that activity. DH’s both go to work and we Moms stay
home. How “Leave It To Beaver” could we look?? :)

But the secret is that what things look like from the outside is not what
matters.

My kids are being carted to things they chose! For instance.

When we are at home, we are not sitting around the kitchen table crunching math
worksheets. We are online or DS is gaming or DH and DD are puttering in the yard
or we are lounging with whatever book we picked up at the library or. . . etc. .
. just glorious everyday life. In a loving home with mutual support.

We have not built any rocket ships in the kitchen sink but we do what we want to
do and are happily unschooling. And you can too! :)

***

LOL I always love it when this stereotype pops up because DH is the at
home parent with DS, going places and doing things. He’d look so
loverly in a denim jumper with his big old beard! Think a youngish
Santa (pre-white hair) in a jumper and that’d be DH. It’d make it a
little tough getting in and out of our big, black Ford F150 fullsize
pickup. LOL

***

> You are not hosting cow milking lessons while wearing your denim
>jumper?

Hey you ALL…<<<G>>> We don’t give any ” lessons” on milking cows but if any
of you ever want to come milk some we can certainly show you how.
And my DH wears bibs/jeans overalls ( AKA denin jumper ) everyday morning and
night to milk our cows…lol.
My ds wears them with a red shirt so he can be like Super Mario ( he couldn’d
care less about the cows right now).

***

I’ve been struggling with the same concerns about whether our ‘average’ life
measures up for an unschooling environment. Some of the unschooler’s blogs I’ve read from
various sites have left me questioning if I am a slacker! Granted, I have a new
baby, and have to let a LOT of things go, but I have a hard time watching my
4.8yo occupy himself so much with TV and video games, which I allow only so I
can have a breather.

But when I take stock of what we accomplish in a days’
time, from conversations we have (that a month later he’ll repeat ver-batem), to
cooking time shared, and the oh-so-many learning opportunities that fall

in-between our ‘activities’. I’m raising a compassionate, self-motivated, well grounded little boy, who is a joy to be around.
I guess the question is, am I self-motivated? In my own way, I am. During my
entire childhood I had a scheduled life. To this day, my mother attempts to
impose a schedule on me (to no avail). I have chosen an unscheduled life,
whereby I live by inspiration. ‘What do I feel like doing now’ is what I live
by. I offer the same lifestyle to my children. I feel it is their right, as is
it mine. When I am still, inspiration comes.

Some days I crave learning new
things. I find my 4.8yo is the same (as I presume we all are, given the freedom
to be still long enough to listen to ourselves.)
Writing gives me clarity, and I have found the reassurance I was seeking by
just writing about this. I guess one unschooling principle that applies to this
subject is ‘not imposing outside standards/expectations on our children’s
development.’ Now if we could only figure out how to take that advice re: our
own parental development!

***

I really appreciate all the responses! I guess I knew that it would
be okay, but just needed some mirroring that it is enough just to live
and learn together. I need to be gentle with myself as well in this
adventure. Of course it goes against everything I and most people
know about education and the trust will grow over time. I feel like I
am about to jump off a high dive without being able to see that there
is water underneath.

***

> I feel like I
> am about to jump off a high dive without being able to see that
there
> is water underneath.
>

The water is fine!!!!!

JUMP!

and enjoy.

Is my life too boring for unschooling? is a post from: Unschooling4Life.com: Information about unschooling

I’ve been reading through Joyce’s and Sandra’s sites and am finding a lot of my thinking regarding spending and buying things for the kids challenged. I’m feeling I need to be more lenient but where do you draw the line when your kids are really young and could potentially bankrupt you (okay, that’s an
exaggeration).

I’ll give an example and I’d love to hear how others would have handled it. Yesterday, I was in a stationery store with my boys. My five year old adores anything to do with paper, pens, receipt books, envelopes, anything official looking. I often buy him all kinds of things like this.

He was looking for a specific type of sticky label that a friend had. In his roaming he found a self-inking “Take Out” stamp (for a restaurant, I suppose). He liked it. It cost $30 dollars. “Mommy can I have it?” Well I’m thinking to myself, “I’m supposed
to say yes, right?” But how can I?! Dilemma. DH would choke if I came home with
it. I’d have to lie about the price if he asked <g> and for absolute sure ds
would play with it for two days max and then it would land in his craft box
forgotten. Ds is just scratching the surface of understanding the prices of
things and value (emotional or otherwise). Just. He adds and subtracts any
numbers up to five (I know this from playing Monopoly Junior
with him).

So I said, “Is there anything else that you could pick that you’d get more use
out of?” Next to the stamp he spied a mini-stapler – he’s been wanting his own
stapler for awhile, something cuter than my desk stapler which he uses all the
time. $6. He loves it, he’s happy, we go home. Do I feel good about it? Not
really, a niggling voice is saying so what do the hard-core RUNners do
(athletes, you are). This week my ds also asked if we could buy a mini-bike, a
chainsaw, a tractor, a helicopter. So what do you say?????

***
When this happens to me in the store- like girls want a sheet of stickers for $3
I say “this costs too much lets find different stickers that cost less” then we
go looking and sometimes they forget what we were looking for. When I say this
they usually say “ok” or the 4 yr old says “how much is it”

***

We do the same. If I come prepared to spend a little extra, I give my son a
limit and help him find options that fit HIS budget. Deep down I don’t believe
in saying no, so if I didn’t bring $ enough this trip, I’ll say ‘later’, and
make it up to him. That may take a couple days, but the fact that I don’t forget
helps prevent a meltdown in the store the next time I have to say ‘later’. I’d
like to add here that I am a thrifty shopper, and a practical toy-buyer, so my
son doesn’t usually get the very item he requested first. We work out a
compromise.

***

How about instead of “supposed to say yes” you try “want to find a way
to meet his needs.”

I would get an eraser or ten and MAKE stamps. That’s what he WANTS,
right?

Do you really think we buy our kids whatever they ask for? All the time?

It really IS about finding a way to meet his need. The need may be
addressed in other ways. Like with the erasers as stamps.

Go to a mini-bike store and look around. Ask to sit on one.
Go to a hardware store, look at chainsaws. See how heavy they are. Note
how dull the chains actually are. Maybe find someone who is cutting
down a tree and go watch.
Go to the tractor store. Compare the sizes and what each can do. Ask a
farmer for a ride.
Go to an air show. Go inside a helicopter.

Ask each of these people/owners how much their “toys” cost. $5.9
million for a helicopter—that’s a wee bit more than our HOUSE! <g>
Would he be willing for all of you to give up your home to live in a
helicopter? <G>

It’s hard to understand the value of $$, but talking about how many
houses you could buy for the same amount of $$ might make more sense.
How many CD or video games or shoes could you buy for the price of one
_________? Start making small comparisons—that’s how we *all* figure
out the value of $$.

***

LOL when DS was younger, we’d compare things to Burger King kid’s
meals – that widget would cost 6 kid’s meals, that over there is only
half a kid’s meal, just a cheeseburger really not even the fries and
soda,… It was a familiar thing, the numbers of a size he could deal
with (approx $3). And, anything more than about 10 kid’s meals was “a
lot” to him.

***

This discussion has been very helpful to me. Thanks, Kelly, for the
distinction between “finding a way to meet needs” vs. “supposed to
say yes.” That’s such a helpful way for me to think about it.

I’m struggling with a bit of a twist on this topic. I want to
say “yes” to my kids but I am having trouble accepting all the stuff
that comes into our house. It just seems like a constant flow of
tiny little toys that the kids use for a few days and then forget
about but aren’t willing to part with. We give them their own $$ to
spend weekly and we recently increased the amount b/c I felt like we
really weren’t giving them enough to work with so they couldn’t hope
to do anything but buy $1 toys. (They’re 4 and 7.) But even with the
increased amount, they really don’t seem to be able to wait and save
it so now we end up with cheap (not well made) $5 toys!

This sort of dovetails with the earlier McDonald’s discussion b/c I
my husband and I have made a value judgment for ourselves about
bringing more material things into our lives. It’s not that we don’t
buy things, we’re just trying to be a lot more thoughtful about what
we buy and why. So I am not sure how to work with this value that we
have without foisting it onto our children.

We give our kids their own money b/c I want them to have it as a
tool to use and so they’ll have money that we don’t have any say
over. But then I find it terribly hard to let them do as they wish
with it b/c at this point, it means a constant flow of stuff into
our lives which we don’t want!

***

One way I deal with this is by bringing the boys shopping at garage
sales and thrift shops. My oldest remarked to his dad that he can get
way more at a garage sale than in a store for the same amount of
money. I had not said anything to him in this regard, he realized it
himself. This helped me realize that these stores and sales were the
best places to bring the kids for them to spend their precious coins.
And then when we are finished with the cheap toys, sports equipment,
binders, you name it, we can return them to the thrift shop for
someone else to buy.

I must admit, I do midnight culls of the stuff they haven’t played
with in ages that I’m pretty sure they’ve forgotten. I won’t do this
much longer but I’ll have to come up with some ideas from ds1 as to
what to do with things that aren’t getting used anymore.

***

I recognize this problem! A solution we came up with that has worked
well is for the to kids pick a charity/cause and donate the toys to
them about twice a year. In the past they’ve picked women & children’s
shelters where the kids have only a few, if any, possessions. Once
they filled 2 boxes to give to a family that lost everything in a
house fire. Last time they picked an agency that collects items for
young mothers. They’re extremely generous when they’re picking out
things to give to kids who have very little.

The other thing they willingly do is gather up stuff and “trade” it in
at a thrift store (like Goodwill) by donating it and then using a few
dollars to find some “new” things. And when they grow tired of those
items they’ll do it again.

***

It’s true, that we can honor our own preferences while still
respecting our children’s, but have you thought about the fact that a
lot of our “values” and “convictions” would go right out the window if
we didn’t live in such luxury?

Some of the discussions about vegetarianism and what companies to
support etc…are completely pointless when one lives in poverty.
Suddenly your “values” are all about surviving and you can’t be as
uptight with those when one is worried about the next meal.

I realize most of us have a fridge full of food, a comfortable house
and such, but recently I’ve realized that a lot of my high ideals are
a result of living in complete luxury for most of my life. Makes one
think about “values” differently.:)

***

We made the decision to unschool about a week ago. With endless resources
online and through the internet, and a house stocked full of books, puzzles,
games, movies, etc- I have no doubt we can meet the kids’ learning needs. And
while it appears there may be little if any distinction between unschooling and
“unparenting”, there still is some in my mind. And that may be due to money (or
our lack thereof).

The “unparenting” (I’m still unsure about what the official term is) has a
ring of elitism to it. And take what I say with a grain of salt, because my
exposure to all this has been exactly one week. But I’ve been reading posts to
my husband over the past week, and we’ve come to the conclusion that we just
flat can’t afford to live this lifestyle.

Times were good when I was working, so we have a lot of “things” leftover from
that era. It’s hard to come to our home and think of the kids as deprived. We
did maintain a subscription to netflix, so the kids get to take turns picking
movies. They get to choose what to wear from what they have, and in general we
try to accommodate their requests when we can. (There are small and creative
ways we’ve been able to do this.) But we get Angelfood (boxes of food that is
picked out by someone else), which has been a lifesaver for us, but at the same
time removes all choice as to what we eat from the equation. We eat what we get.
All of us do. We don’t have the gas money to go wherever we want, and we can’t
buy any new “things”.

I like some of the things I’ve read in this thread. Someone suggested that
it’s a “want” the kids need fulfilled. Our challenge is to find a way to meet
that want without spending any money at all. Sometimes the effort involved is
all the kids need to know their desires are being respected, and that we hear
their voices.

***

Let me try to clear this up, maybe a little bit anyway.:)

“Unparenting” is a diragatory term, used by people who believe that
respecting your kids needs and desires, allowing them to sleep when
they’re tired, eat what they like etc… means NOT being a parent.
They equate it to neglect basically. Which is not what we’re
advocating here at all.

Nor are we advocating “buy anything and everything your kids want at
all costs”, no, no, no. The entire point (which will be easier to pick
up on after reading discussions over the long-term, it’s harder to
decipher after a week, truly) is simply giving our children the same
respect that the adults get.

Many of us believe that children should have the same access to the
world that we get as adults. I share the resources we have with them
equally.

I’ll give some examples:

My oldest child has a girlfriend that live 1.5 hours away. I work
full-time and we don’t have unlimited resources. But I know that if I
really, really wanted to see someone I would find a way. So we found a
way to get her up here several weekends. We did some creative problem
solving with friends that were doing driving anyway. I drove before or
after work some days…we made it work because it mattered to him.

I could have said “Well get a job then, I can’t afford it” then
proceeded to buy art supplies I really wanted. That would be
hypocritical.

I try to find ways for us all to get our needs met. We all work
towards that end, most of the time. The occasional break-downs are
usually a good time for reflection and learning where we could do
better the next time.

We don’t buy everything we want. We work within the very real budget
we have. But the kids needs and desires are taken seriously. The tools
they choose for exploring their world is something we believe is
important.

We trust them as intelligent human beings that get tired and hungry
and need help and assistance at times….but not control. Last night,
as I sat at this very computer, Jalen came in and said “I’m tired Mom,
come lay down with me now.”

How many six year olds that have an arbitrary bed time (a time that is
convenient for the parents, not when the child is tired) will do that?
I NEVER would have asked to be put to bed as a child.

The results of trust are pretty well-balanced and trusting
individuals. Trust builds trust. FUnny eh? We’re not saying “say yes
to everything” nor are we telling anyone to live outside of their
personal reality as far as money, resources and living situations.

We’ve lived in some pretty tiny, cheap places and driven beater cars
in the past. We’ve eaten beans and rice a lot too! Through those times
we still found ways to get access to most of the things the kids
wanted to do. Not Disneyworld maybe, but the day to day things
happened with some creative problem solving. :)

How we treat our children, the respect we give them and trust we’re
willig to extend, has nothing to do with budget or the kind of shelter
or city or anything else in our daily lives. It’s simply a choice.

It’s not “unparenting”. It’s being the most connected, mindful and
gentle parent we can possibly be.

***

This is a good point. I just finished reading a book called “The
Revolution Will Not be Microwaved” which talks about underground
food movements and supporting local farms. There’s one story about a
couple who decided to *only* eat foods grown within a hundred mile
radius for a year and discovered that in order to do it they would
have to give up being vegetarians. Most of what we vegetarians eat
is decidedly non-local. A lot of it is international *and* passes
through the hands of some very big businesses. That’s not
necessarily a bad thing, but it does create a situation where
actually living some of my political values puts those values in
conflict.

Its a good read – I was pleasantly surprised by how much the
philosophy of the book mirrored the philosophy of unschooling. If
you’re interested, here’s the author’s website:

http://www.wildfermentation.com/

***

Good things to ponder. I’m going to check out the book as I’ve been
very focused on sustainable food (which has little to do with organic)
and how to become more independant in regards to food.

It’s really easy to get stuck thinking our values are “good” without
really looking at all the issues at play. It’s really easy to get
stuck on our values when we live in a society that grants us so much
wealth!

“Values” are relative to situations in many cases. It’s helpful to
look at the “what if’s” sometimes to keep us grounded. I can’t deny my
children their own learning-takes in regards to all these issues. They
deserve the same right to discover their “values” without all my
personal judgements…though they know my views on many issues.

***

Unschooling is NOT about Yes to everything. It’s about evaluating
knee jerk reactions (yes and no) and finding where those are coming
from; it’s also about removing arbitrarily determined rules and
boundaries.

Budget is a REAL constraint, not an arbitrary one. We’ve
never had a problem looking at something with DS and saying “gee
that’s pretty cool looking. Hmm it’s also $30 – that’s a bit much
for our money right now. Let’s put that on the wish list (a real,
physically written down list when DS was younger, now it resides
more in his memory – an amazing memory at that lol) for next payday
and look for something else right now.”

Or, if we -had- the money
but it was earmarked for something else, we’d put that on the
table “well, I had been keeping $30 aside so we could go to the
movie on Monday. We can either buy this OR go to the movie but we
don’t have the money right now for both. My choice would be the
movie since we could all go and get snacks and everything. What do
you think?” and we’d stand there in the store aisle and discuss pros
and cons of BOTH options plus any other things we could think of
(get a less expensive item and smuggle in our own snacks or get
fewer snacks or whatever).

It made for really LONG grocery trips in
particular as we’d go along and see stuff that wasn’t in the budget
as planned but could fit if we changed things a bit – e.g. “This
bubble kit looks really cool. Can we get it?” “That’s pretty fun
looking. Let’s see – it’s $5. How about we note it down (I always
have a list and a pen in the grocery store) and come back to it?”
Then we’d finish the alloted shopping and I’d look at the total (I
keep a rough running total on said list with said pen) and see if
there was space to flat out buy that item. If there was (like if the
salmon we’d planned on looked really ugly so we skipped that),
great, we’d head back and get it.

If there was no space, we’d look
at what was in the cart and see if there was any wiggle room -
“well, looks like we’re right up to the edge of the grocery money.
We did get 3 boxes of cereal so we could have something we all
liked. If we put two back and get just one BIG bag of <brand>
cereal, we’d have enough for the bubbles. Which should we do?” By
then, the bubbles might still be important or they might have lost
their luster in favor of something else (a favorite cereal with a
promised “prize” inside; some ice cream; donuts; cottage cheese -
yes cottage cheese was one of DS’ preferences one time – whatever).
One BIG thing is that whatever you offer (we could put these cereals
back to get the bubbles) you need to be willing to follow through
on – offering that as an option then pushing your own choice negates
the whole effort. If you offer a choice, you need to be okay with
whatever is chosen. If there’s something totally off limits (we’re
not buying that cute $15 dog toy – we don’t have a dog!), make sure
it’s not offered. (of course, some of those dog toys make cool kid
toys as well).

The result at our house is a 9 yr old who had birthday money plus
allowance in his pocket (roughly $60), looked at a $40 brand new
videogame and said “Gee this is $40 that’s too expensive, let’s look
for something else.” And we found a less expensive and now favorite
game instead.

A helicopter? LOL he’s got big aspirations doesn’t he? That’s where
you might say “Wow that’d be cool. What could we do if we actually
had a real helicopter?” and go with it, along with “They cost more
than our whole house (or whatever)” and “How about we go over to
<airport> and bring a picnic lunch and sit in the car and watch the
helicopters and planes” and “Well, a real helicopter is very
expensive but we could go to <dollar store> and see if they have any
littler ones that we could get for us to play with”

The paradigm shift between conventional thinking and unschooling
goes something like this:
conventional: we have to make examples of saying No to kids because
they have to learn that they can’t have everything they want. they
need to buck up, deal with disappointment, learn to work for what
they want.
unschooling: Life has it’s own real boundaries and parameters and
kids will run into them no matter what, it’s our job to facilitate
as MUCH of what our family wants (grownups count too) as possible in
the circumstances, creative thinking is important, don’t ‘settle’
for less when more is possible

I know it was a big shining moment for my DH when he realized that
not only could we give DS things he wanted (when we had the money
for them) just because he wanted them BUT DH (and I) could also have
what we wanted just because we wanted it (when we had the money
available). All of his growing up he got birthday and holiday
presents and that was it – everything else was *earned*, with good
grades, extra chores, “proper” behavior, etc. (his family also hit a
really bad streak financially for quite a while so there were times
with no money available at all). To be able to get himself something
simply because he wanted it was part of healing the inside of him
that always felt like he was never “enough” (working hard enough,
being good enough, etc), always lacking something, a sense of want
not abundance. Something as simple as a $5 magnifying lense (we’re
talking an 11″ lense that can set wood on fire) really made his day
when he bought it.

And, too, simply having wants taken seriously can help with that
sense of abundance even IF you can’t have the item (now or in the
foreseeable future).

***

*I* say, that I am really sorry we can’t, but that we simply don’t have the
money to spend right now on that. I keep it simple and clear. When I am able
and I CAN, I do say yes to as many things as are asked for – but I also have a
responsibility to use the household money as wisely as possible. My kids
seem to really get this. They know, Julian especially (who is 4) that we do
often get a little something, so when I have to say “no” it’s reasonable, and
that his ants and needs are respected. My gut feeling, is that this is really
the goal. Always saying yes to things like items and toys and what-not, no
matter the consequences, seems like an odd suggestion for any parenting style.
It
seems that what we are trying to impart is a sense of fun, learning, the
support to help our children think critically, t always think about why we say
“no” to something and how we can alter that to either a different word or a
different response. So many of us conventionally trained folks say “no” for
reasons that if one thinks critically about, make no sense. I see *this* as the
deeper part of the issue. Simply saying yes to all things all the time really
doesn’t make sense to me (like the request for a helicopter…you can
discuss how purchasing one is not affordable, but you can mention that flight
lessons are available, and that maybe we can’t purchase one, but maybe we
should
look into having a scenic ride, or becoming a pilot). I want the few “no’s” I
say to make sense and be respectful and thoughtful answers. I say no to many
things, but I always try to discuss it, why I say “no” and all issues
surrounding it. Am I getting the unschooling parenting? I think so. I feel
good,
open and fairly honest, lol, I know I’m not perfect and that’s cool with me.
What I AM doing is becoming more and more comfortable with following my
children
as they lead me, with my style, with my terminology, with myself. It’s an
ongoing process, lol! I think the more I do so, the more I’ll be able to use
more “yes” type language, or rather more, “Why not?” style of responding to the
kids. I’m getting better. But I’m also comfy with my times I say “no.”

Hope that makes sense, I really rambled here!

***

Well it’s good to know I’m at least somewhat on the right track.

>I would get an eraser or ten and MAKE stamps. That’s what he WANTS,
right?

When he asked for the stamp my first response was an excited, “Guess what? I
think we have a whole bag of stamps from [cousins hand-me down box] at home!”
But no, what he really wants is this particular very neat stamp. He probably
likes the action of it, the stamp part disappearing then clicking back out all
inked.

>Go to a mini-bike store and look around. Ask to sit on one.
>Go to a hardware store, look at chainsaws. See how heavy they are. Note
>how dull the chains actually are. Maybe find someone who is cutting
>down a tree and go watch.
>Go to the tractor store. Compare the sizes and what each can do. Ask a
>farmer for a ride.
>Go to an air show. Go inside a helicopter.

>Ask each of these people/owners how much their “toys” cost. $5.9
>million for a helicopter—that’s a wee bit more than our HOUSE! <g>
>Would he be willing for all of you to give up your home to live in a
>helicopter? <G>

He’s helped operate a chain saw, sat on mini-bikes, sat on tractors, flown in a
helicopter (a generous free flight after we helped a harried helicopter mechanic
pack up a bunch of stuff at the airport during fire-fighting season). Now he
wants his own! After the chain saw I helped him make a big one out of wood. He’s
happy with that now. I often talk about how many honey pails of quarters
something would cost (he seems to have a concept of the relative value of a
quarter).

My biggest issues fall into the same bucket as Leslie (in NJ)’s. Dealing with
issues that hit a real hot button. Especially where I feel that we all need to
be doing something now in order to make the changes to make this a better world
(or even just a world) 20 years from now. How do I hand my money to a cashier
when I can tell from the label that this item was made in a sweat shop by child
labour? Can I burden my 2 and 5-year-old with that decision and sadness of it.
No.

***

Linnaea loves stuffed animals, loves them. There are more stuffed animals in
our house than I know. But they are hers, they aren’t mine. It is her stuff,
not mine, that she is bringing into our house, the house that is each of
ours. Maybe it will help if you really examine who “we” is and see that it
is an issue for you and maybe for your husband, but not for the other people
who share your home.

If I can look at the things she is buying as her things, and her choices for
her use and her pleasure, than it is separate from my things, my choices, my
house.

The other day Simon bought a yu-gi-oh duel disk, something that I’ve been
resistant to him buying for a long time. Whenever he would discover it again
in Toys R Us I would distract him, or mention something else that I knew he
wanted. He’s been wearing his duel disk for 3 days, challenging me for duels
all over the place. He loves it. What I saw as an awkward hunk of plastic,
he sees as a connection to one of his favorite shows and a part of the story
telling he does. So, all the distraction and movement away from the duel
disk that I did kept him from this aspect of his storytelling, this part of
his relationship with yu-gi-oh.

***

We gave dh an hour tour/lesson in a small 2-seater helicopter for Father’s Day.
He’s hooked <g>. And not only did he look up how to get his pilot’s license as
soon as we got home, but asked his instructor how much a helicopter like the one
he flew cost. When he told me it was $200,000, I thought “well, that’s about a
1/3 of the cost of a house around here…” and further thought “we could
rent/live in a smaller house with a big garage, if having a helicopter would
make him happier <BWG>.” I’m always trying to figure out what I could live
with/live without so we can be as happy as we can. Sometimes, it requires a
complete shift of what I thought were priorities.

BTW, it cost about 5 CDs/DVDs for the helicopter lesson…:-)

>>> Ask each of these people/owners how much their “toys” cost. $5.9
> million for a helicopter– million for a helicopter–<WBR>-that’s a
> Would he be willing for all of you to give up your home to live in a
> helicopter?

We gave dh an hour tour/lesson in a small 2-seater helicopter for Father’s
Day. He’s hooked <g>. And not only did he look up how to get his pilot’s
license as soon as we got home, but asked his instructor how much a helicopter
like the one he flew cost. When he told me it was $200,000, I thought “well,
that’s about a 1/3 of the cost of a house around here…” and further thought
“we could rent/live in a smaller house with a big garage, if having a
helicopter would make him happier <BWG>.” I’m always trying to figure out what
I could
live with/live without so we can be as happy as we can. Sometimes, it
requires a complete shift of what I thought were priorities.<<<<<

What I love about this is that you’re valuing a passion of your partner’s –
not just the kids. I get concerned sometimes that many unschoolers focus so
much on the passions of their kids to the exclusion of the parents. Why
would a kid want to be an adult if it looks like you don’t get to have fun and
follow your dreams anymore???

You probably won’t end up purchasing a helicopter (but wouldn’t it be cool
if you did?), but I have no doubt that you’ll find ways to make those dreams
real. (And I am sitting here thinking that there have to be used helicopters
available, etc.)

Giving, Spending and Finances is a post from: Unschooling4Life.com: Information about unschooling

So…I have a 17 year old – the one I want to unschool – who I am learning

Image via Wikipedia

to “unparent” (not my favorite term, but ya’l know what I mean, I hope). I have lifted his curfew, we talked about responsibility to one’s self and with
freedom, comes different types of responsibilities. I am alone in this, as I am with much of my wild parenting style ;) So…support? Thoughts? Ideas?
Ruminations?

***

I have mixed feelings about this one- The easy thing is to say obey the law but then there are ways around that and he would have access to it in hiding which leads to pretending and not being able to get help in case he drank too much.

***
Not so easy. Its within the law for parents to offer alcohol to their
own children in some places (not all, check local laws, please!)
although not others’ children.

***

You and your son don’t seem to yet have a very trusting relationship. From
what you’ve written previously he seems to think you are a bit mad and a bit
irresponsible. I don’t know if his sense of you and, given what you’ve
written, his sense of himself is a sense that will produce a responsible
social drinker.

That said, I don’t really believe that there is a lot you can do to control
someone’s actions when you aren’t around. It seems that if you can make sure
he knows you will come and get him if he is too drunk to cope, if you won’t
judge him, if he won’t be in trouble, it may go a long way to helping him to
see how much you are willing to support him.

Personally, my two children are being raised in a household with two parents
who drink a glass of something most evenings. David (dh) brews his own beer.
Simon (ds) has made his own apple cider, it didn’t quite hit hard cider.
Both Simon and Linnaea have tried alcoholic drinks and, while Linnaea enjoys
the occasional sip of mead and Simon likes very slightly alcoholic cider,
they really don’t like drinking. They are only 10 and 7, so there isn’t the
hanging out with friends, having an illicit drink sort of appeal, but they
are growing up in a household where illicit drinking is unlikely to be that
appealling or really that illicit.

So, I guess I don’t know. I suppose it might be a good step in your
relationship with your son, but it may just go further to confirm his
feelings that you are a loosey-goosey parent <grin>.

***

Teens WILL experiment—not nececssarily with drugs or drinking or sex,
but with *many* different life choices. That’s what they do.

If it’s forbidden, they will sneak it. If they’re sneaking it, they’re
NOT going to tell their parents when they are in trouble. If they trust
their parents completely, they WILL call when they are in difficult
situations.

It’s *much* more important to me that Cameron be SAFE. Everything else
works around that premise. He *has* called us when he was high to
either ask for a ride home or to tell us he was staying the night. He
knows how much we value him and his safety. I don’t want him arrested
or dead in an alley or by the side on the road. We’ve talked about not
buying pot from people he doesn’t know, about keeping his paraphenalia
well-hidden, about being very careful where and with whom he smokes.

I never agreed to buy him stuff, but Cam and I talked about not buying
from strangers and buying organic whenever possible. I wouldn’t hand
him a fifth of vodka and say, “Go for it”—but we do talk about high
end beers and wines and liquors vs. rot gut.

He got drunk with three friends on his 15th birthday. Dangerously
drunk. Ironically, it was a sobering experience—he now drinks very
little. A very occasional beer or glass of wine at home or other safe
environment.

He told me yesterday that he was uncomfortable being around a lot of
his friends now because they ALL want to be drunk or high all the time.
He knows he doesn’t need that, and he doesn’t like to hang around with
them now because of that. (All these guys are/were schooled with
parents who don’t understand them.) He’s struggling with this right now
and trying to find some folks he’s more comfortable with.

The question to you becomes: What will you do/say when you find him
with alcohol?

Your answers will tell a lot about how you feel about it. If you can
verbalize to HIM—AND follow through *to the letter*—what you will
do/say the *first* time, he *may* start to believe you.

But poking around his things to see whether he *was* drinking the night
before will not win you trust points. Neither will asking whether he
was drinking or how drunk he got. But BEing there for him time and time
again WILL show him you trust him.

I dropped my son off one time at a concert and said, “If you’re going
to get high, please be smart and careful—and call me if you need me.”
He laughed and said that all the other parents were probably saying,
“Don’t get high!!!” <g> He appreciated that I was realistic. He KNEW he
could count on me.

Ironically, he’s never (knock on wood) had any incidents with the law
or been in any dangerous situations (well, except for that drunk night
on his birthday). Every one of his friends and cousins has been
arrested or in a dangerous spot. Buying pot from an undercover cop,
DUI, drug paraphenalia found in their cars or dorm rooms, rehab, beaten
up by a dealer—all SORTS of stuff! ANd these are all *GOOD* kids.
They’re just doing stupid stuff—and aren’t in a position to tell
their parents/ask for help.

His safety is THE most important thing to me—and he knows it.
I’m sure it was hard for him to call us the first time; but when we did
what we said we would do—with no shaming or anger, just relief that
he’d called us, he knew he could trust us. We *NEVER* let him
down—not once!

***

To me this is part of the whole issue we have here in America (maybe
other places too I don’t know!) with infantilizing our young adults.
It irks me to no end! Times past 17 was manhood, now it’s still
kidhood…Only problem is biology doesn’t fluccuate with out cultural
whims so we get dissention in our families…grrr…And I’m sorry that
wasn’t your question & I don’t mean to sound like a Pink Floyd song so
end rant :)

I personally do not get the hangup with drinking at all. Getting drunk
is a whole ‘nother issue, just a totally bad idea for anyone imho. If
it were my 17yo I’d say consider the law & be prepared to take whatever
the underage drinking consequences are like a man. If you wanna make
that choice enjoy a couple of drinks, have fun and keep your wits about
you so somebody doesn’t come to harm or worse. Just like a grown up…

How bizarre is it anyway?? Is there some magical biological twist of
the screw when they turn 18 (in near-beer states) or 21? Okay NOW you
can drink and it’s OKAY! Yesterday NO but today YES!! No wonder kids
think that’s dumb, it IS dumb!

***

I totally agree and get on that soap box often!

They can get a license to drive a 1,000 lb vehicle. They can get
married and hold jobs. They can buy houses and pay mortgages. They can
go to war and die for their country.

But they can’t buy a BEER??? It’s so ridiculous that it boggles the
mind.

***

I agree whole heartedly with Chris. If parents make a big deal out of
it, it is a big deal. If kids learn how to drink responsibly in their
own homes, it is much healthier. If their parents drink and the kids
see them drinking responsibly, then the kids get the idea from a young
age. Even more so if everytime they go out as a family the parents
choose a designated driver between them if they are going to go beyond
their safe limit (for me it would be one drink to feel impaired these
days!).

Different scenario of course for non-drinking parents but it can still
be modelled by family friends and relatives (hopefully healthily!)

***

Unfortunately, because of the weird societal issues around the use
of alcohol, for some people drinking is “about” getting drunk. My
stepson’s mom hangs out with the sorts of people for whom that’s the
purpose of drinking, so that’s the behavior he’s seen modelled.
That’s our main concern, and one we don’t have about Mo – she’s
being raised in an environment where she can see people drink
casually and responsibly.

So we’re taking things slowly with Ray, trying to “say yes more” and
model healthier behavior, while being concious of the fact that we
are imposing limits on him. We’re letting him taste beer and wine
and even hard liquor, but just taste. At some point we’ll start
letting him have a small glass of his own…but both George and I
are still sensitive to the fact that its us “letting” and wondering
how to move on from that. I have a definate sense that time and
increased overall trust and communication is a big part of this
process, but I really can’t articulate it past that.

***

Unfortunately, because of the law, you have to choose to ‘let’ him.
Your life/livelyhood is on the line!! You are the one who could get
thrown in jail, pay a fine, lose a job, or have to deal with CPS.
Personally, I don’t beleive in this law, I believe the forbidden
fruit theory… The law makes it something kids WANT to do just because
they are told they can’t. I also, don’t believe drinking is the
problem, getting drunk or drinking and driving is the problem. Why
don’t we make the laws to handle the true problem instead of punishing
everyone??
I wish they would revamp the laws to punish the true crime and the
true criminals. Sigh, But I can’t even change the thinking in my own
household. I don’t know what we are going to do when my DD gets older
and we have to cross that bridge. (maybe in a decade society will have
come around?!?)

***

Teens and Drinking is a post from: Unschooling4Life.com: Information about unschooling

If
there is a knock at the door, we always have to answer it now. How
do I avoid this? Please consider this, they all have different
schedules, and they can start coming from eight in the morning until
eight or later at night. We plan on moving eventually, but that
depends on a job my husband is waiting for a position to open. My
kids love seeing them all the time, but I don’t want to!

If the
overwhelming opinion is to just “suck it up” and forget my yearning
for a smidgen of privacy, then I would have to ask you for advice on
handling very pushy in-laws. Because, not only are they ever
present, but they also do not respect my decisions and they
manipulate my children to do what they want them to do.

For
example, we have been outside for several hours and it is getting
dark and I say we need to go inside now. The grandfather might
say, “oh let her stay out longer”. I then say, “no, we really need
to do “x”. He keeps on and at this point my child is running in the
opposite direction. My F-I-L is well known for doing very dangerous
things. He has held my baby next to popping grease and would not
give her back to me (I was hormonal and I swear I could’ve killed
him!) He had her riding on a plow once even after I said “no”.

He
is even a bad role model at times–he was riding on a tractor
spraying the fruit trees and had a PLASTIC BAG OVER HIS HEAD!!
These are just a few — I could go on and on! They also will ask my
child to “ask me” things they know that I won’t allow. I feel like
they should take these issues up with me and not use my child to
make me look like the bad guy. I am talking about things that I
won’t budge on, not about stuff like, “can she have a cookie”.
Please let me know what you think I should do.

***

When I read the last part of your message, I became frightened. No wonder you
are concerned about you father-in-law. This goes far beyond being pushy or
disagreeing, his behavior is irrational and dangerous!
What does your husband say to his behavior, especially when he is driving with
a bag over his head? Is he trying to stop and reason with his Father?
If not, you have to make clear to him, that this is affecting the safety of
your children, not just a convenience or a nuisance. In this case I would set
clear boundaries with your husband first. For a few days, until you have had a
chance to agree in detail with your husband how to deal with this dangerous
behavior, stay clear of them.
Then enforce them strictly.
The second part of the issue you have raised, there is a blatant disrespect
toward your authority as a mother – just because you are unschooling does not
mean you are not in charge of your life and your household. This part will take
more time to really help you with each issue. But for now, focus on the first
part of the problem, keeping your kids safe.

***

I doubt that you will get far on this issue unless your dh supports you or at
least will not interfere and when you do as you must.
Ideas:
*a statement of your need for increased privacy without defensiveness but
without apology
* a schedule of visiting hours
*a requirement that they call ahead
* an honest discussion of how it hurts kids to be put in the middle of these
conflicts
*an ultimatum that if your needs for increased privacy and cooperation aren’t
met then they will see the kids less
Really I’ll bet that you already thought of these ideas and others, so I guess
there is some reason you doubt these will work, such as not feeling supported by
your dh, or not liking to cause ‘problems’, etc. In-laws are so sticky!! Whew!

***

I would like a little advice on an issue. I live next door to
my in-laws (which includes two adult children still living at
home). They mean well, but they all are constantly at my house to
see my two children.

-=-=-=-

How about inviting them for supper and telling them you have something
very important to discuss with them all.

Tell them that you love them very much but that you’re feeling that
they aren’t treating you as the *parent* of your own children. You feel
that you need to have the *right* to be your children’s parent (so to
please back off)—and that, since you are *homeschooling*, you need at
a minimum 8:00-3:00 for “school.”

Tell them (almost) what you told us and exactly what you need and
expect.

Let them know that you will revisit the topic weekly (maybe even plan a
Sunday dinner each week for all of you —or Tuesday steak night or
Wednesday homemade pizza night) to let them know how it’s working for
you. You can take that time each week to show them what the children
have done “school-wise.” That way they will know they get one night
each week that *you* devote to them, specifically. They get to see and
play with the kids and find out what they’re interested in. Maybe the
kids would like to put on a short play r puppet show or something for
the grands or something.

The following week do it all over again; but if they don’t follow your
guidelines, you could get a little more emphatic. If they aren’t
playing along, you can eventually tell them that you WILL refuse to let
them see their grandchildren if they won’t play nice. But then you HAVE
to do it—at least for quite a while.

-=-=-=-=-=

For example, we have been outside for several hours and it is getting
dark and I say we need to go inside now. The grandfather might
say, “oh let her stay out longer”. I then say, “no, we really need
to do “x”. He keeps on and at this point my child is running in the
opposite direction.

-=-=-=-

When it *is* time to go in now, simply scoop up your child, start
walking towards the house, and say, “See you tomorrow!”

How you word things IS important—don’t give him an “in” to play his
games.

-=-=-=-=–

They also will ask my child to “ask me” things they know that I won’t
allow.

-=-=-

Like what?

***

It might be helpful
to approach the discussion from the perspective of “consistency”.
Kids do better in a consistent environment – which doesn’t mean the
same thing as having rules and being dogmatic about them (the usual
interpretation). Kids (people in general) do better when the
expectations placed on them are consistent.

The expectations in an unschooling family are a bit different from a
rule-based family, so its important that the kids can be fully
imersed in unschooling for a big chunk of time, every day. They need
that.

***

<<When I read the last part of your message, I became frightened. No
wonder you are concerned about you father-in-law. This goes far
beyond being pushy or disagreeing, his behavior is irrational and
dangerous!>>

Yes, it is. I am not exaggerating in any way. He is well-known for
his foolish behavior. People around here just laugh it off.
Luckily, nobody has been hurt seriously…yet. It really ticks me
off.

<< What does your husband say to his behavior, especially when he
is driving with a bag over his head? Is he trying to stop and reason
with his Father?>>

Everyone mostly laughs about it. You CANNOT reason with him (FIL).
He just doesn’t “Get It”.

<< If not, you have to make clear to him, that this is affecting
the safety of your children, not just a convenience or a nuisance.>>

My husband agrees and is concerned about their safety. We have a
strictly enforced rule that our kids are never left alone with any
of them.

<< The second part of the issue you have raised, there is a
blatant disrespect toward your authority as a mother – just because
you are unschooling does not mean you are not in charge of your life
and your household. >>

You have nailed it on the head. They have no respect for me or
anyone else for that matter. You can’t deal with people like that.
My biggest issue was this; how do I protect my children without
letting my children know how inept their grandparents behavior is?
Furthermore, do I even need to hide this fact from them? I feel
torn, I am appalled by my in-laws behavior and comments, but I am
afraid to CONSTANTLY have to degrade their behavior in front of my
children. I hope this makes sense.

I have found the best thing thus far is to make frequent day trips
away from home…I can’t even enjoy living in my own
home/yard…sad…

***

When my daughter was very little my sister tried to be the parent and
take the place of me. Any time we were around her she would do
things to contradict me and frustrate my parenting. I repeatedly
told her about it and she saw nothing wrong with what she was doing.
Finally I sat my daughter down and explained that she was to obey me
1st. So if she got contradictory answers mine overuled.

Of course,
being a child, my daughter went for the one that seemed the most fun,
my sister’s answer. I looked at my sister and let her know that this
punishmet was on her. My daughter got the message that I’m the mom
and NOT my sister. Unfortunately it had to be the hard way. Maybe
you would do better to start with your kids. Be sure that they
realize who is in charge and that, although the grandparents are
important people, they are not the parents.

***

This is an enormous burden to place on a child.

Kids deserve a loving environment in which the adults are willing to
focus on helping the kids to shine. If other adults are not willing
to help, if they are, instead, putting their own interests and needs
before those of the kids, then those adults don’t need to be around
children.

Sometimes other adults want to help, but have conflicting
expectations wrt kids. That happens alot with unschooling bc our
expectations are really different from “the norm”. I’ve been going
through this to a small extent with a guest of our close friends and
neighbors. He enjoys hanging out with children and has alot of
skills for dealing with conventional “gently disciplined” children,
but those don’t really carry over to dealing with radically
unschooling kids. So we’ve been having some conversations
specifically about my kids and their needs and how to better
communicate with them. Its taking a certain amount of trial-and-
error all around.

***

I’ve been going
through this to a small extent with a guest of our close friends and
neighbors. He enjoys hanging out with children and has alot of
skills for dealing with conventional “gently disciplined” children,
but those don’t really carry over to dealing with radically
unschooling kids. So we’ve been having some conversations
specifically about my kids and their needs and how to better
communicate with them. Its taking a certain amount of trial-and-
error all around.

-=-=-=

I have a friend too, who is very good at dealing with schooled kids.
He’s a magician and handles large groups of schooled kids really,
really well. That’s his bread and butter.

I asked him to help with the first conference (Emcee the talent show
and do some other magic stuff). It was a disaster—he had NO control,
and he didn’t know what do with with no control! <G> If it weren’t so
painful for me to watch, it would have been funny.

Those of you who came to the first conference surely remember (or maybe
it wasn’t as painfully obvious to everyone else—I don’t know). But it
struck me HARD!

He’s so much better around my kids—after years and years of watching
us with them, but I still don’t think he could handle as many kids as
we have now at the conferences! <G>

***

Finally I sat my daughter down and explained that she was to obey me
1st. So if she got contradictory answers mine overuled. Of course,
being a child, my daughter went for the one that seemed the most fun,
my sister’s answer. I looked at my sister and let her know that this
punishmet was on her. My daughter got the message that I’m the mom
and NOT my sister. Unfortunately it had to be the hard way. Maybe
you would do better to start with your kids. Be sure that they
realize who is in charge and that, although the grandparents are
important people, they are not the parents.

-=-=-

I’ve been off the computer for a week, but I wanted to address this and
not leave it as is.

Obey? Punishment? “The hard way”?? Who’s in charge?

None of this is mindful or respectful.

Exactly what do you think you daughter learned? I know what you were
trying to *teach*—but what do you think she actually *learned*?

Better to “sit the sister/grandparents down” and lay down the law with
*them*.

***

I live in a community of friends who are in and out of
each others’ houses all day…which means that they
are are in mine a lot. Although I do not have the
problems that you have, I realized that I had to
preserve some of our “family” and private time. So in
the end I found that putting up a laminated sign that
says, “Family Homeschool Time, Please come back later”
really worked.

My friends and my childrens’ friends
respect the sign. Not sure if it would work in your
situation but I suppose it couldn’t hurt to try. I
also have another sign called, “Family Time” for when
we need space (meals, reading, playing games, etc.).
You might just want to have a “Homeschool Time” sign
since your in-laws would consider themselves part of
your family. Even if you are unschooling, not
schooling at home, it can be nice to preserve your
boundaries!
Hope that helps.

Pushy People is a post from: Unschooling4Life.com: Information about unschooling

DH asked the kids if they wanted to do breakfast with his parents
this weekend. DS said yes, only to make dh happy. Dd didn’t want
to, because she doesn’t want to see them.

On Sunday they woke up, and ate breakfast here. Dh woke up really
grouchy, and was upset that they ate here, instead of wanting to go
out to breakfast with him and his parents. (It was after 11:00 a.m.
when he left for breakfast.) The kids are used to eating after they
get up, which has been around 9. So to wait until 11 is too long for
them to eat after they get up.

Problem remains, that my kids don’t want to see their grandparents
here, and dh keeps trying to push them into it, even though he
promised he wouldn’t. My kids are attached to my parents, who live
550 miles away, and would rather see them. How do we handle this,
and let dh know in a nice way, that he shouldn’t push, and when the
kids are ready they will let him know? I know it hurts him, but his
parents alienated my kids long ago, when they were out of the cute
baby stages. They are now almost 10 and 11, and can make some of
those decisions on their own. Dh never had a relationship with his
grandparents, so he understands, but never accepts that his parents
did this to themselves. HELP?

***

First I need to say I am a grandma. My fourth grandaughter is due to
arrive next week. As much as you love your kids, you love your
grandkids and you do not have the same ability and access to your
grandchildren, especially if they are your sons children.I know that
sounds sexist, but truly it is not.

Both of my dil are beautiful girls whom I completely love. They let
me love their children. They generously share them with me and love
me despite my faults.

My oldest sons first wife did not like me. She hated me and after
she divorced my son she made it almost impossible to access my
grandaughter. It broke my heart.

Some of my children are also adopted and we see there birth
families. As far as I can tell you cannot have to many people that
love you.

My kids birthfamilies are not folks that I might choose to be
friends with if we did not share children. But they are my kids
birthfamilies and because I love my kids I make them comfortable and
I treat them with respect and kindness. They are my family. I also
set boundaries with the ones who are less appropriate so my kids
feel safe and can appreciate the contact. Like we meet in neutral
places and have timelines on the visit and code words so if they are
to uncomfortable we can leave. However during a visit I work very
hard to make sure my child and this birthfamily member are engaging
in positive interactions so my kids will feel good about the contact.

Yesterday former dil called and asked if I wanted to see
grandaughter. She lives 21 hours away and it is a rarity to have
any access.I said I would love that. They spent six hours at my
house, former dil and grandaughter. I fed them, chatted and chose to
practice kindness and tolerance despite that fact that this girl
devistated my son and has done some very cruel things to my family,
includinng malicious untruths about me.

She is the mother of my grandaughter, therefore she is also my
family.

I know there are situation where family needs to have boundaries
set. Where hurts need to heal, but communication and kindness can
bridge many gaps.

I am sorry your family is split and hurting over this. It is really
sad for everyone.

***

My in-laws live 5-10 minutes away from us. We live in
the same town.

My kids choose not to see their grandparents, because
as my son has told me many times–”I have given them
lots of chances mom, and they have blown them all.”
That is alot for an 11 year old boy to have to live
with.

We have made every opportunity for them to see the
kids, and they are not interested. We invited them to
school stuff, when both kids were in ps, and I ended
up trying to explain that they couldn’t come, when all
I knew was that they were either off to their other
grandson’s concerts, which was after my childrens
concerts, or they just plain didn’t want to go. After
discussing this with my dh, we decided to stop
inviting them, because there was always an “excuse” to
why they couldn’t come.

My kids have also noticed that at family functions,
they are always paying attention to everyone else’s
kids, but never them. This hurts them, and they don’t
understand why. There are only 3 grandkids in dh’s
family, two of them belong to us. My son just told me
that he would rather not see his grandparents here,
because everytime a baby comes around, that doesn’t
belong to the family, his grandparents treat him like
he doesn’t exist, and just pays attention to the baby.
They have always done this.

I do make sure to tell them that their grandparents
love them, and I have no problem with my husband
taking them over there to visit, but plain and simple,
the kids just don’t want to go. I don’t feel that
it’s a good thing to force them, because it would do
more harm than good. I also don’t have a problem with
them being attached to both sets of grandparents.
There is no bond/connection with the set that lives
near us.

My children are just as happy not to see them. The
fact that they are attached to my parents is not a
contest. It never was. My parents do things with
them, call them long distance, send them letters, and
pictures. The ones that live here, don’t know my
kids, and have never taken the chance to get to know
them. I have been put in situations with my dad’s
parents, and was forced to go for visits with them.
It backfired and in a bad way.

My children deserve to be happy, and feel loved and
safe. They don’t get those feelings from my in-laws.
I feel bad for my kids and my dh’s parents, because
they are missing out on two really good kids. I can
only get them to agree to see their grandparents once
a month at breakfast, if even that. I can’t help the
way their grandparents here treat them. They are not
the traditional kind of grandparents, and don’t really
have much time to spare to spend with my kids.

I am not a nasty evil daughter in law. I don’t get
along with my in-laws, and they aren’t allowed at my
house while I am home, but I have never stopped them
from seeing my kids. They can call them any time they
want, but they choose not to. They could ask for my
dh to take them over for a visit, but they don’t.
None of this is my fault. It is their’s for not
making any effort to see their grandkids, and to get
to know them. My kids have told me that when they
visit over there, their grandparents don’t really talk
to them, and talk to my dh instead. I guess sometimes
they should stop and think about how that would make
them feel, especially since my kids tell me how much
in bothers them. Talking to them doesn’t help, they
just don’t get it.

***

I am not saying you are the evil dil at all. I am just trying to
share other perspectives.

My family is a mess too and one of the realizations that have
happened for me personally is that my kids are not emotionally
dependent on my folks or my dh folks. They are emotionally dependent
on us to give them the love, support and nuturing they need.
Anything they get from grandparents is a bonus.

The definition for a role as a grandparent come from us by some sort
of standard defined by society.

GRANDPARENTS go see everything there grandkids do

Grandparents bake cookies and love to have their grandkids over

Grandparents want to buy their grandkids lots of stuff

Grandparents want to take their grandkids for the weekend and love
to play board games with them.

Who set that definition?

I do not accept definitions that my kids need to do _______by this
date, or age. Why must I accept defitions of how my kids
grandparents are supposed to behave.

That does not mean I allow my children to be abused or mistreated by
anyone, including their grandparents.

My mom is very much not into being a grandma. She owns it and NEVER
wants to be responsible for kids. She was not thrilled about it when
she was my primary care giver. However she is a talented poet and
writer. When she visits I always ask her to bring her new poems.
They are full of social injustices and sometimes gut wrenchingly
beautiful.

The kids and I love to sit and have her recite for us. That is what
she gives us. That is it. She never remembers anyones birthday. She
does not want to send Christmas gifts.She never wants the kids to
visit or stay over. She loves her grandkids in her way. It was just
a process for me to accept that her way was not what I thought she
should be.

Year ago when my dad was alive he did not want my kids to call him
grandpa. He however was really into meditation. One day I asked if
he would teach us all to meditate in his style. My boys and I had
been talking about how cool it looked to watch him. He spent an hour
explaining meditation to us and helping us become centered. We
connected with him where he was at and my kids still talk about that
experience with warm memories. They also laugh at his lack of
willingness to be a grandpa.

I am once again sorry for your situation and hope it resolves itself
in a way that works for everyone.

I am also sorry if you felt attacked. I am not an attacker, but
often like to take the other perspective if it is a situation I can
see through different lenses.

***

I don’t feel attacked. So there is no problem there.

I didn’t expect them to show up to every concert, but
when they chose one grandchild over the others, that
was a little hard for our family to take.

I once remember that my fil told my son, you are my
favorite grandson, when Jon isn’t around. Luckily my
son was young and didn’t catch it.

I don’t expect anything out of my il, because they
give nothing. All my kids would like from them is to
show some kind of affection, and to show some interest
in them. They show neither.

My mil wants my daughter to be something she’s not,
and can’t accept her for who she is, which is the same
way with my son. My kids don’t expect anything from
their grandparents here either. They are not
materialistic, they are not being raised that way, so
whether or not their grandparents buy them stuff is
not an important part of the relationship they once
had. My parents don’t buy them lots of stuff, but
spend quality time with them, which is what my kids
want.

I understand your perspective on things with you being
a grandparent. Things are different in each family,
and right now the kids want nothing to do with their
grandparents that live close to us. When they are
ready, and feel like they want to, they can go see
them.

I also do not like labels or definitions. Life is
meant to be lived to fullest extent, and to be
enjoyed. Right now they are enjoying life, and having
fun, and have no added stress from their grandparents
here. All I want is for my kids to be happy and care
free.

Again, I am not mad at you, and don’t think you were
calling me evil. You were just trying to show me a
different perspective, and I appreciate that.

***

I can jump in on this one even though I’m not the original poster! My
older son doesn’t much care to see my parents because my parents are
not very affectionate. My father doesn’t know how to give my older
son Eric, who is six, time to warm up when we first arrive at their
house, but immediately wants Eric to, say, hug, him. This has been
the pattern since Eric was 2 or so:

My dad: Give grandpa a hug!

Eric stands quietly.

My dad: Give me a hug!

Eric scoots closer to me.

My dad, yelling: ERIC! COME GIVE GRANDPA A HUG!

Eric gets into my lap and stays there for an hour.

Carl, 3, is much quicker to warm up, and has a more outgoing
personality. In the last year, when we visit, my mother doesn’t
bother to hide her preference for Carl over Eric.

My whole life, my parents treated me badly because I wasn’t what they
wanted in a daughter. Now they are increasingly indifferent to my
kids, Eric especially, because he doesn’t seem to fit some
preconceived notion they have about what a grandson should be like.

Neither of my parents is able to think of others, and put someone
else’s feelings ahead of their own. Not even small children’s.

Why wouldn’t a kid want to see his grandparents? Because he’s smart
enough not to want to go where he is not valued and treated well.

You can be attached to 20 sets of grandparents, or you can have
> grandparents that you are not always thrilled with but you know love
> you and are just who they are.It is not a contest.

How do you know they love you if they never treat you like they do? I
recently read “The Five Love Languages for Children” because it was
being discussed on AlwaysUnschooled. According to the authors, there
are five “love languages”: gifts, acts of service, quality time,
physical touch, and words of affirmation. Amazingly, my parents
managed not to speak any of them, while maintaining a facade that we
were a successful, happy family. I do suspect they love me, or think
they do, but it is a lot to ask of a child that she “know her
grandparents love her” and accept them for who they are when they are
not showing love in any meaningful way and do not accept her for who
she is. I am in my 40s and only just getting the hang of this with my
parents, as I develop more compassion for them and their own
childhoods–if you look at the families they came from, full of
alcoholism and violence, my parents are miracles for not passing
those dysfunctions on. But they still fell far short of giving me and
my brother the love and affirmation children need to thrive, and, as
grandparents, they are materially generous but cold and not
affectionate.

***

Thank you. You have described my in-laws to a tee.
They aren’t very affectionate at all. When my kids
used to go visit, they would say hi, asked what they
were learning, and then over an hour later, say good
bye to them without speaking any other words to them
inbetween. (This comes from both of my kids, and not
told to me by my husband.)

I believe that children need to be loved and nurtured,
and they don’t get that from the grandparents that
live in town, and they know this. They are not
comfortable visiting over there, so why should they be
forced to go. My son has told me that he would rather
not see them, and as part of the unschooling life
style, shouldn’t I honor his wishes?

I do understand how you feel. My dad’s dad was an
alchoholic, and beat his kids all of the time. Later
in life, when I was forced to go for a visit, he did
some things that no one should have happen to them. I
am not trying to sound cold, but thank God he died
before my kids were born. He would never be allowed
to see my kids, ever.

It is part of my job to see that my kids are
comfortable in any situation, and this is one that
they are not. Their grandparents here may love them,
but they never show it. Just like being a parent is a
full time job, so is being a grandparent.

***

We have issues with my FIL along these lines… mostly that he expects
them to be thrilled to see him when he has been abusive physically,
verbally and emotionally to our entire family. They don’t trust him
and it’s not likely to change just because now and then he shows up
and wants them to be thrilled to see him or that he sends a gift
(suddenly after 15 plus years of barely acknowledging holidays or our
existence he’s santa claus… again he is giving things and not
himself) When he visits he spends his time telling the children how
they can improve themselves and all the things that we are doing wrong
as parents.

We have had lengthy periods of no contact with him
because he is just not a “safe” person. My kids say they feel
“icky” when he is around …. my oldest says she is sure it must be
how kids feel when someone molests them. I have tried many times
over the years to foster some sort of relationship, I am respectful of
him as a person but have had to make it clear that he will be asked to
leave if his presence becomes harmful.

Typically he shows up, my
kids say hello and then disappear only showing up again to say good
bye when he leaves. I can’t MAKE him love us no matter how much my
husband wants him to and it’s heartbreaking. I feel a certain
responsibility to keep my kids safe…physically and emotionally so I
have to limit the contact with this person. It’s heartbreaking that
this sad, lonely, widowed man is missing out on a relationship with
his only grandchildren because he’s chosen to be selfish over the
years with his time and attention.

***

I can see where this would be relevant if the grands were looking to
find a mutally acceptable solution with the kids for getting
together, or for dad to be more comfortable with the kids’ decision.

On another level, though, I don’t think it matters so much *why*
they don’t want to see their grandparents.

> you can have
> grandparents that you are not always thrilled with but you know
love
> you and are just who they are.It is not a contest.

Right, but its not okay to *make* kids visit adults they don’t want
to spend time with, regardless of the degress of relationship. It
doesn’t improve the relationship, and it harms the development of
autonomy and personal boundaries.

> Both of my dil are beautiful girls whom I completely love. They
let
> me love their children. They generously share them with me and
love
> me despite my faults.

I haven’t gotten the impression from the original poster that this
is an issue between her and her mil. The issue is that the *kids*
have decided they don’t want to see these grandparents.

It can be really challenging for kids to visit extended family or
other adults who don’t “get” unschooling and treat them
disrespectfully. Sometimes its possible to work out ways to connect
that are mutually respectful, but not always.

***

I think if folks are toxic or unkind to your kids
you make lots of space. But I often find that there are way to work
stuff out so it works for everyone.

I don’t think you should “make” kids do stuff either,but is there a
way that dh can not feel bad in this mix. Is there a middle ground
that the kids can control how much they visit and dh and
grandparents and mom all get what they need?

Does it have to be all or nothing?

Could dh invited his folks to stop by and say hi after he had
breakfast with him? Or are the kids completely opposed to having any
contact? If it was at their house the kids could say hi and still go
do their thing if they no longer wanted to visit.

Is it really okay with kids, mom and dh to totally stop the
relationship?

***

I am not trying to make it all or nothing. My kids
are free to visit their grandparents anytime they
like, at their house. DH’s parents are not allowed in
my house anymore, after taking years of mental abuse/
mean comments made in my own house, or things that
were said to my hubby about me. I want to feel
comfortable and safe in my own house, and I don’t when
I’m here and so are they.

I don’t like dh to be hurt, but at the same time, my
first and most important priority is my kids. If they
decide to go to breakfast, they want to stuff their
mouths full, so they don’t have to talk to their
grandparents, which to me is unhealthy. It’s better
to avoid the situation altogether.

I think it is up to the kids, if they want to visit
their grandparents or not. I think if they are given
time and space, they may want to see them on their
own. Until then, I will do what they need me to do,
and give them lots of love and understanding.

They don’t need negativity in their life, and with
their grandparents here, that is what they get, when
they aren’t getting nosey with the kids.

Again, if they want to visit their grandparents, I
have no problem with it. They just don’t want to

***

You are right. This is not an issue between me and my
mil. We haven’t gotten along for years now, but I
will never stop the kids from seeing their
grandparents.

I won’t make my kids see their grandparents. Whether
they want to or not, is totally up to them, and I have
to support their decision.

There is no connection or bond with this set of
grandparents. They have never made the effort, and
are always playing with other people’s kids, and not
them (my kids). My kids are at the age now where they
have been noticing this for quite some time now, and
are not comfortable around them.

I did try for a while to get them involved with our
kids, but once they got out of the cutesy baby/toddler
stage, they weren’t interested in them any more.

I don’t see this situation getting any better. The
best thing I can do is support my kids, and let them
decide what they want to do. There is no show of love
and affection towards them, which is really sad,
because they never did anything to deserve this. It’s
not our problem, it is their’s, and they are missing
out on two really teriffic kids.

Thanks for understanding Meredith. It is hard, but I
don’t expect my kids to do things, that I wouldn’t do.
I know there is a difference because I am an adult
and they are kids, but I want them to enjoy life, and
not worry about adult things.

Whether or not there is a relationship between them
and the grandparents that live near us is up to them.
I won’t force them into anything, it will only
backfire.

***

My problem is kind of unique. I’m the grandma, but I’m also the
mother of an unschooling 13yo.

Two marriages, two sets of children. My oldest son is married and
they have 2 kids (7yo & 6yo). both grandchildren attend a very
prestigeous private school and are pushed into sports, ballet, etc.
My grandkids love to come over because they can eat what they want, go
to bed when they are tired, etc.

They spent last week with us in Palm Springs. We had such a blast. At
the end of the week my grandson told me he wanted to come live with us
because we don’t yell.

My problem is my DIL, she is very concerned about our 13yo. Many
times she has taken my dd out for lunch and told her she is missing
out on all kinds of “stuff” by not going to school. In fact this past
year has been a real struggle with dil. Elizabeth has made comments
about maybe wanting to attend hs, because she doesn’t want to miss out.

I have actually sat down and informed my dil that she needs to keep
her opinion to herself. But, my dd looks up to my dil who is 30 yo.
I’m 53 and out of touch. DIL also denies that she is trying to
interfere, but dd has told me differently.

DIL has even influenced my grandkids, they have on a few occasions
said things like “oh that’s right Elizabeth doesn’t do or go to
school” and this is in a very condesending tone.

I have the book “The Teenage Liberation Handbook” and when Elizabeth
comes to me and says she really wants to go to high school, I’ll ask
her to please read the book first and then if she still feels she must
attend HS, then I have no choice but to honor that choice.

I feel like I am on a tight rope. I need to keep things ok with dil
so I can see my beautiful grandchildren, but my dd’s priorities are
first. Oh and my dh is very upset by dil’s interference. My son just
tells his wife to keep her mouth shut.

***

This conversation reminds me of something I read of few years ago about
grandparents by Jan Hunt of The Natural Child Project. It seems that in our
culture many grandparents think that grandchildren should automatically respect
the grandparents. Jan believes that the children should gain the respect of
the children.

Why would a grandchild want to spend time with a grandparent who does not
put time or effort into that relationship? Why would anyone want to be in a
relationship where the other party does not seem interested. It does not mean
that the grandparent has to go to every baseball game, etc. But, if they do
not put in any effort, then of course a free child is aware enough to realize
that they deserve to have a relationship that is a two way street. They
should not have to be around a grandparent that thinks that the child has to be
around them just because they are the grandparent. I certainly would not
want my child to be in any relationship (now or as an adult) where they did not
feel that they could be their authentic selves and have the other party
interested in them.

Is it possible that the dh in this case may still be struggling with
pleasing his parents, and doing what they demand, whether or not he
authentically
wants to do it. If he really does want to be with his parents, and the
children do not; then have him go and the children stay. That is a compromise
in my
eyes. The dh is getting his needs met to see his parents. The children are
getting there needs met of not seeing the grandparents. Pushing one into
seeing someone that they do not want to see, will usually have the reverse
effect: they will want to see that person even less.

Maybe the suggestion of having the il over to the grandchildrens’ house
would work. That would have to be decided by all the family members, adults
and
children alike.

Not all grandparents want to love their grandchildren. Some do, like one of
the posters here. Many don’t. Some see it as a duty. Others see it as the
*childrens* duty to respect and love them, when they do nothing for the
children. As in all relationships, it should be a give and take, with *mutual*
respect, regardless of age.

***

You could be right. Maybe dh feels the need to go see
his parents. The kids really don’t want to see them,
and I stand by their decision.

I have always told dh he can visit his parents any
time he would like, at their house. They are not
allowed in my house for the nasty comments they have
made to me in front of my kids about the way our house
looks (it’s not white glove, but it is also not messy,
either.) or that I should do this or that with the
kids. Nothing I ever do is right. They constantly
criticize, and it’s not healthy for my kids or for me.
Dh probably doesn’t see this, because he is used to
it, or because of the fact that they always make the
comments when he is not around.

Right now my kids are very comfortable not seeing
their grandparents that live close, and would rather
see mine that are 550 miles away. Not because they
spend money on them (they are both retired and are on
limited income), but because they spend quality time
with them, by having campfires, playing games,
watching movies, etc. The grandparents that are here,
do none of that.

I have told dh several times that if he pushed the
kids into visiting his parents it will only backfire,
and will do more harm than good. I think if he
doesn’t push them, it might take some time, but they
may come around on their own. If they don’t, than
that’s ok too.

I do know that dh had a talk with his brother, and
told him that they (his parents) had their chance, and
blew it when they paid more attention to other peoples
kids, and not ours. So he knows the kids have
problems with his parents, but I think he just doesn’t
want to accept it.

They ( il) constantly pick at the kids and will tell
dd to sit up there and eat (she’s a slow eater, and
gets full easier than ds), and will make comments
about ds being over weight, and things like that. All
of the boys on dh’s side of the family are built big.
Mil has no daughters, only 3 sons. I have the only
granddaughter in this side of the family. The sad
part is that they don’t know my kids, and have never
taken the time to get to know them.

My kids have adjusted well, and are very comfortable
with who they are, and what they are doing. They know
that they are loved, and very well taken care of with
all of the support and nurturing they need from me and
dh.

***

I have told dh several times that if he pushed the
kids into visiting his parents it will only backfire,
and will do more harm than good. I think if he
doesn’t push them, it might take some time, but they
may come around on their own. If they don’t, than
that’s ok too.

-=-=-=-=-

My mother is good with babies and very little children. But as soon as
they have her number, she can’t handle it. She sees them as
manipulative when they don’t do as she says or when they want something
she’s not ready or doesn’t want to give them.

I’ve always given both boys a choice on whether to visit her or not.
They’re now 19 and 11.

And I’ve told her point blank that I *WILL* keep the boys from her if
she cannot behave around them. My boys’ physical and emotional health
is far more important to me than her need to see and spend time with
them. I *have* kept them away from her for months at a time (and we
llive in the same city) until she’s ready to “play nice.”

What’s happened is that she’s now (usually) nice to the boys. But more
importantly, my boys are nice to her. Given the *choice* to be with her
or not has empowered them to be kinder because they understand they
don’t *have* to be there—it’s their *choice*—and they certainly can
choose to be somewhere else. If they choose to be with *her*—well,
they *want* to be there, and they make the best of it. That’s better
for *all* of them (us!).

I feel sure that if we had forced them to spend time with her, they
would have resented her and us and eventually refused to spend *any*
time with her at all.

I think the older they get, the more they can handle difficult people.
But when they’re too little to stand up to her (or drive away!), the
more it’s *my* resposibility to protect them.

Grandparents Who Don’t Fit the Mold is a post from: Unschooling4Life.com: Information about unschooling

Several new posters have said that children need guidance, so they want
to (or DO) set limits.

I promise our kids aren’t wild monkeys because we don’t set limits.
They don’t strangle kittens for fun. They don’t watch porno all night.
They’re not shooting up in the bathroom. And yet they have “unlimited”
access to the world (limited only by natural limits—not arbitrary
ones).

What we’re saying is that lifting limits (not all at once—just saying
“yes” more) and trusting our kids to make well-thought out decisions
(even though they may not be the decisions *we* would make) will ensure
that they will trust us to stand by them when they *do* have bigger
issues to deal with.

Do my children experiment a *little* outside their comfort zones? You
bet! That’s how they figure out the world. That’s how they decide what
*their* personal boundaries/limits are. Still, at 11, Duncan does NOT
want to watch love/sex scenes or realistic violence.

Do they do it without my input? No. I’m there to guide and make
suggestions and help if they bite off more than they can chew. They
know I’m always nearby to “rescue” them if they need it.

Guidance? Maybe you think that’s about keeping things from them until
you’re ready to let them know about it.

To me, it means keeping them safe from things that could be harmful
until *THEY* are ready to test their limits. How do I know when they
are ready? Because the whole world is open to them, they do it with
baby steps. They don’t need to ask permission or sneak.

I didn’t watch Kill Bill when Duncan was around. He wouldn’t appreciate
it. (It bothered me a bit as well!) He was a little frightened by a
couple of scenes in Lord of the Rings, but I held him close and told
him when he could open his eyes. We talked about it a lot afterwards.
If I had told him that the movie was just too intense for him, he would
have believed me because he trusts me. But if I had refused to let him
watch because *I* know better, he may have begged to watch, gone, and
gotten scared, but not want to tell me how scared he was (and lived
with that fear for days/weeks/months) OR he could have gone to see it
without me and never tell me that he saw it.

Lying, sneaking and guilt are not good for any relationship, and since
my relationship with my boys is THE most important thing, we work
together to get what they need.

Guidance, to me, means walking hand-in-hand while pointing out
potential problems and possible solutions. I do NOT tell him what to
do, but I’m happy to tell him what *I* would do IF he asks. I’m OK if
he decides on a different course—it could be a better one than I
would have chosen. If not, I’m happy to help him get out of the
uncomfortable position he’s in. He knows I trust him, so he trusts me.

If I were to have limited his world (by not allowing certain shows or
by keeping certain things “secret” or hidden or by not talking about
them) how would he be able to make decisions? Then I wouldn’t be
*guiding* him; I’d be *stopping* him from exploring his world. If I
were to somehow feed him my perceptions (TV’s bad, junk food’s bad,
some programs/movies are bad/not worthy) that became counter to what
*HE* thinks are good or valuable, then what’s a child to do? What
become his options? Lie? Sneak? Be filled wih guilt?

If he can’t trust me to trust him with small things like tv and sodas,
how do I think he will trust me with *such* bigger issues like drugs
and sex?

Trust doesn’t develop overnight. It’s a process that takes years and
years and years. The earlier you start, the sooner it’ll be a part of
your lives.

***

what you said makes a lot of sense. But I guess I am still stuck
on some of it because my kids are so young……7 yo and 3
yo……..here is another example of my setting limits.
a couple of sundays ago hubby and I were watching the Sopranos….the
kids were watching a movie of their choice in the other room……but
they decided they did not want to watch their movie they wanted to
watch the show hubby and i were watching. I said no to that because I
feel sopranos is too violent for little kids. so is that setting a
limit? Did I limit their world by not allowing them to watch the sopranos?
In reality they just wanted to watch tv with us, so we did change to
watch something else.
but bottom line they did seem interested in viewing what we were
viewing, and I did say no.

***

Rather than saying “no”, just be open to the moment. Did they really
want to watch it anyway, or simply BE with you? If being with Mum and
Dad was the object, then saying “let’s find a show we all like” would
be a great tactic rather than saying “you can’t watch this”.

There have been times that dh and I were watching something we knew a
child wasn’t able to handle, so we simply stopped it and said “I think
this show will really bother you, let’s watch something we all like”
and that was fine.

It’s not about exposing your kids to anything and everything, I think
young children should be shown books/shows/ etc…that are more tame.
But I’ve also learned that some young children like Alien vs. Predator
and other things I would have deemed to violent.

Jalen likes some pretty freaky shows, and has NO ill effect from it.
His older sister was very sensitive for a long time and is now
beginning to like some scary movies at age 10. Each of my kids are so
different in regard to their preferences. I’d never learn that if I
was more bent on limiting, than expanding.

Trevor really wants me to watch “Saw” and “Saw 2″. NO WAY. I don’t
care for outright horror most of the time now…just can’t handle some
of it. He loves those movies and would enjoy discussing it with me
because it’s intelligent horror that puts the characters in some
bizarre catch 22′s.

They all love anime. Some of that is pretty dark, but the discussions
spawned from that are amazing.

The key isn’t about exposing kids to anything they aren’t ready for.
The key is IF the child is fascinated, how are you going to find a way
to help them navigate? How are you going to help them get what they
want (and how is everyone in the situation going to get what they need
out of it)? How can we expand their worlds?

They may watch something they aren’t ready for, because of a
fascination. Are we there for them without being ready to slam a limit
on them for the next time, shouting that we don’t trust them now
because they made a mistake? Are we willing and able to let them make
mistakes and still trust them? Can we quit relying on limits as the
fix-all? Because it might be a bandage in the moment, making the
parents feel better. Hell, a limit is sure easier than truly being a
guide.

But the effort it takes to be there for them, to dialogue, to support,
to navigate is so much healthier than slapping a limit on something
just because it causes some discomfort.

The question I ask myself often is “how can everyone get what they
want from this?”

***

I have an idea about that! I can stand to read some things I can’t
stand to watch. Many scripts for movies and TV shows are available on
the internet. It might be possible to read the scripts, if being able
to discuss those movies with you in particular is important to
Trevor. I have sometimes not wanted to finish watching a movie that
was disturbing me, and then have gone to read the script (or a
complete summary at a spoiler website like www.themoviespoiler.com)
so I can find out how it ends.

***

The point, as you did, is to get to what the kids *really* want,
which was to be with you. And turning it off was the right solution.

But the initial no, it’s too violent has increased the curiosity
factor, and a desire beyond the initial curiosity. A plain door isn’t
any where near as intriguing as a door with a big read “DO NOT ENTER”
sign on it!

By saying no, it’s too violent, you’re saying in essence — basically
what they internalize that you’re saying to them — “I don’t trust
your ability to handle this.” It might be true that they aren’t ready
for the violence, but by saying you don’t trust their ability, it
becomes an internal challenge to test that limit.

Picture Uncle John at the family reunion saying to the kids “That
rock’s too high. You can’t jump off of it,” with the expectation that
the kids *will* jump off the rock. ;-)

That’s the state of mind “No” creates. “No” is a personal challenge!
It’s natural to want to test our personal limits. Especially limits
others doubt we’re up to. Especially with kids who know they’re
growing and changing everyday. What they couldn’t do last week they
know it’s possible they can do today.

Instead of no, mindful parents will give information: “Sopranos is
very violent. There’s a lot of killing and people being mean to each
other. If you’d like to watch, we can try it.”

A child who has been hearing no *won’t* hear that information in the
same way as a child who trusts that his parent is working to get them
what they want. A child who has heard no will hear what they’ve
always heard: “No, I don’t trust you can handle it.” It takes time to
build up trust that a parent really is trying to help them.

For a child who has been mindfully parented, they *know* their
parents want to help them get what they want. If a parent says
something is violent, it’s a piece of information to *help* them
decide. They *trust* the parent understands what bothers them
personally (for my daughter it was moving skeletons) and the
information is tailored specifically to them. But they also know that
their limits are always changing. (My daughter can watch movies with
moving skeletons now.) If they decide to watch they know they can
turn it off at any time, they know they pick it up again later when
they feel ready, they know if they have nightmares from watching that
their parents will comfort them. They *trust* that their parents are
their partners in getting what they want from life so they trust
information is to help them not to put up barriers around them.

***

I guess if it were me I would also talk to my children. Before watching it.
If they came into the room, and I have done this with my boys before, I
pause the movie, or change the channel. And we talk, what is it that they
want…to be with mom and dad…to watch what we are watching…to watch
something
together not necessarily what we are watching…something totally
different….etc. And if they want to watch what we are watching, I will
explain what
we are watching to them, not in gory detail. I will explain that the
violence and blood may be something they are not comfortable with. I might try
to
compare it to something they have watched prior saying “it is more than XYZ or
less than ABC etc). I would help provide all the information available so
they can make a good informed decision. I don’t try to decide for them but do
feel that, as someone who loves them very much, I want to help them gather
as much information as they need to be able to make decisions. And they do
ask my opinion. They trust me. They will say something like “mom do you think
I would like it?” or something like that. They know I will give them an
honest answer. My youngest is always there for me too. He knows that I don’t
like bloody, gory movies, so he knows when to cover my eyes, LOL. And I do
the same for him. He’ll say “don’t peek mom…I’ll tell you when it is
over.”

I think when you build that great relationship you can do that for each
other and no one feels “controlled”. You have built that trust.

***

Have you asked them why they’re asking?

Maybe they think it’s something *really* cool because it’s being “kept”
from them (adults do that a lot—sex, drinking, etc., so it just makes
it more attractive). Things that are labled “adult” become incredibly
sought after. I’d avoid that term, “not a kids’ show” or “for adults
only”—just makes it too “sparkly”! <g>

Could be that they want to know whether you will be spending the
evening watching TV without them. Could be that they want to talk you
into another movie that you *all* will watch.

***

First, I think “No,” interferes with learning and relationships far
more than lack of TV.

I think the biggest miscommunication in these discussions about TV is
that the anti-TV people think we’re holding TV up as a bastion of
learning when we’re really discussing the effect of parent imposed
limits on learning and relationships, and about holding fears up to
close examination.

I don’t think a child will be harmed by not having TV. But I think
the relationship between parent and child *will* be harmed by a
parent saying no to something a child is interested in. At some point
children will see TV and realize that it’s something their family
*could* have and every no the parent says — even when those nos are
heart felt rational explanations of why the parent thinks TV isn’t a
good thing for their family — whittles away at the relationship
between parent and child.

But even further, if the no stands between the child and something
they’re really interested in, the only options the parent is giving
the child is to keep battering at the no or to sneak behind the
parent’s back. That, too, is not good for the relationship. (Though
the child might be learning a lot about how to get around rules! ;-)

> At some point when the children are
> older and inevitably ask for a TV

I haven’t yet taken my daughter to a tractor pull but if she asked
we’d go.

That’s not the same atmosphere as me fearing the effects of tractor
pulls and hoping she doesn’t ever ask but *saying* if she ever asks
that I’d take her.

Your fears, even unspoken, will affect the atmosphere of the home and
will affect your children’s freedom to ask. You can’t not live your
life with the fears you have towards TV — it might be as subtle as a
stiffening of your body when you hear a mother relate how her 4 yo
loves the news — and not communicate that you have fears to your
kids. They won’t feel as free to ask for TV as they might a book or a
toy.

So it isn’t the lack of TV that will elicit discussion but your
*reasons* for not having a TV. It’s your fears and your decision to
soothe them rather than examine them in the light of facts that will
elicit discussion.

I tossed out my aluminum cookware when I heard aluminum might be a
cause of Alzheimers. Might. It was just a fear I chose to soothe
rather than take a chance on. No big deal. It was my decision that
affected me.

But your fear is affecting the atmosphere you’re creating for your
kids. They *can’t* feel as free around TV with that huge fear in you.

> maybe the
> effects of watching the violence won’t be quite as harsh as it
> would’ve been for a three year old.

Have you asked yourself why you watched so much news when it upset
you? Did you watch because you wanted to be with your mom? How much
did she understand that it upset you? If she didn’t, why didn’t she?
What did she do to help you with your fears? If she knew and didn’t
do anything, why didn’t she? If she knew and was ineffectual, why was
she?

This fear is unfounded in a mindful home. While it’s impossible to
prevent a sensitive child from accidently seeing something that will
upset them — whether on TV or in real life — when we’re sensitive
to what our kids want, we won’t be helping them find things that
will upset them. At 15 my daughter has probably never seen the news.
She’s seen ads for it. She’s seen parodies of it. She just as *zero*
interest in news.

It’s not that she’s never seen or heard or read something upsetting
but I recognize that’s inevitable and we handle it as it happens.
Dealing with things that upset us is part of life.

Why do you fear your 3 yo will see things that will upset her? Is she
particularly sensitive so that even Disney movies or a commercial
might upset her? (There are several people on the list with very
sensitive children who can give you some strategies that have worked
for them.) Or are you projecting your own childhood onto someone who
isn’t you?

> Even if we discuss it with them
> the images have been burned into their minds, we can’t fix that or
> take that away. Doesn’t this seem valid?

No, we can’t erase something.

But put it this way: If your child saw — in real life — a dog hit
by a car, you’d be able to help him a lot better from a mindset of
peace and calm that tragedy and being upset is a part of life than if
you’d structured your life around the fear that he might see a dog
hit by a car so lived your life far from streets and dogs and cars
and then had a head full of additional fears that this event had
traumatized him for life.

> Sure don’t refuse it, but
> why offer it up in the first place if we think it may have ill
> effects?

The key phrase above is “*think* it may have ill effects”.

I think it will help you to examine even further what happened to you
as a child. There was some disconnection that kept you seeing things
that were harming you. You could have turned it off. Your mother
could have turned it off. But something in your home life kept you
watching. It wasn’t the TV, but you’ve chosen to blame the TV. It’s
easier to blame the TV than to dig further. It’s easier to ban TV
than to take what *feels* like risks (but, from experience with
mindfully parented unschooled kids we’ve shown you plenty of counter
examples.)

I think your husband too is cutting off the discussion because of
fears. It’s much easier to ease a fear than face it. He has grasped
at the easy solution of getting rid of TV because he fears the
effects. It’s a lot harder to drag those fears out and examine them
against what really happens with kids who are given freedom.

> Why not just rid ourselves of the television? Is it because
> as adults we don’t want to give it up?

Why give up something that *we* know from experience isn’t harmful? ;-)

I think if you had read on the list long you wouldn’t ask whether
people are making unexamined decisions about their kids. ;-) There
isn’t a practice with kids that hasn’t been held up and examined and
looked at rationally in the light of real experience with real
unschooled kids. It’s what the writers on the list love to do. :-)

> If that is the case are we
> then being mindful to our children’s needs?

It’s always a good question to ask! It’s always good to dig deep and
examine our motives behind our choices, especially choices that
affect our kids.

But your question comes from the point of view that TV is harmful.
What we’re asking you to examine is what were the causes behind what
happened to you? We have kids who have the freedom to watch whatever
they want and the same thing hasn’t happened to them. Why? With the
same factor (TV) the outcome is different so it can’t be the TV.
You’re comparing your life and our lives but there’s some *other*
factor that’s caused the different outcomes. *That’s* what you need
to examine.

> Please someone tell me
> that I’m being mindful of my child’s needs and that I didn’t sell my
> TV and episodes of The Golden Girls that I had on DVD for no reason!:)

It was a reason that made sense at the time! If you weren’t watching
and pictured yourself not ever watching then it made sense.

But we’re always growing and changing and decisions that made sense
for the person we used to be won’t necessarily make sense now.

(BTW, used copies of The Golden Girls seasons go for about $25 on
Amazon :-)

***

~~At some point when the children are
older and inevitably ask for a TV and they see this show maybe the
effects of watching the violence won’t be quite as harsh as it
would’ve been for a three year old. ~~

Maybe, maybe not. I still think you’re giving those images too much
power. And I doubt a three year old would ever see those violent
images because you’d probably have “Blues Clues” and other sweet shows
on when they wanted to watch, right?:)

THe issue really isn’t about whether you have a tv or not. But if you
said the exact same thing about books “Wouldn’t it be better to just
not have them in the house until they ask for them?” does it sound the
same? Worse? Better?

Limiting a form of communication out of fear may not be the best
reason for not having one. Viewing tv as potentially harmful is not
only fear-based, but inaccurate. It’s just a box that when turned on,
has information we choose to access. That’s all. Just like a book, or
a radio.

I think the way a parent handles images viewed, has a greater effect
than the images themselves. If a child DOES see something before
they’re ready, the parent has an opportunity to calmly support,
explain tv/movie effects and not be overreactive.

What if your child saw real-life violence? How are you going to censor
that? What if they watched an animal or a person get hit by a car? My
children were with me immediately following a pedestrian accident
where the woman was unconsicous laying in the street. I stopped to
help. By stopping to assist, they were given full view of everything.

I remember being very upset on occasions as a child because my Dad
always stopped to help at car wrecks (he had training and always
carried certain emergency items with us, including army blankets) and
I saw some things that were pretty intense for a young child. The
manner in which my parents handled it really helped me. Real life
violence always affected me on a much deeper level than anything a tv
could offer up!! I knew it was REAL.

My upsetness was a process of dealing with real people being injured
(and one time transporting injured people due to the nature of
emergency help in remote locations in Alaska) and how to cope with
that. I’d say it was a very positive experience in my life, though it
was sometimes scary to see a car on fire, or injured people etc…

TV just can’t come close to that in my mind! After seeing injured
people, it stays with me. Tv is just entertainment or
information…big deal.

I understand that everyone has a different level of sensitivity and tv
will affect others, where it isn’t affecting me. I just don’t see how
a tv image can have this horrible life-long impact if the parents are
being supportive and assisting their children in having their needs met.

I also work in a business where we learn about movie/tv effects and
study that. My kids see magazines that show how to create realistic
zombies and injuries and what-not. How to make a believable scene or
special effect is a common topic of discussion. I think knowing all
that behind-the-scenes information gives the violent or intense scenes
a lot less power.

***

~~
I’m trying to remember that I am not my mother. For that matter my
daughter & son are not me. What had adverse effects on me, may not be
the same for them. I see that, or at least I’m trying to.~~

I think your self-analysis has really extracted the crux of this
entire issue (for you)…..it wasn’t about the tv at all. The true
hurt came from a parent that wasn’t truly there for you. It got all
linked in with the tv, because of it’s presence, but the real damage
came from a negligent parent (that was probably doing the best she
could at the time).

What if your Mum had used the TV as a time to bond with YOU? What if
she had smiled and looked happy when you entered the room? What if
she’d said “what do you want to watch?” or offered up a million other
options, or simply chosen to be with YOU in whatever activity you felt
like exploring? What if she’d dug in the dirt and had water fights and
made art and taken walks (just to be with you) and generally embraced
you as the beautiful person you are? What kind of feelings might you
have about tv in that instance?

Your mother had the true power, not the tv. I’m really sorry the
negative feelings got all wrapped up in that package. It’s great that
you’ve been able to analyze the truth of the situation and see it for
what it really is. That’s hard to do.

If tv is just one option among many and a parent is walking the path
of mindfulness and joy, it isn’t going to be a harmful influence at
all. In fact, it will expand the learning and connecting experiences
within that family.

***

You know, I grew up in a house like that, too. There were times in my
house when my parents, my brother, and I were all watching the same
TV show–on three different TVs in three different bedrooms. Because
of that, I had a really hard time agreeing when my partner suggested
we get a second TV, or that we move a TV into the kids’ room from our
room because they were the only ones who ever watched it. In our
house now, getting a second TV was a step to increase our choices and
reduce conflicts. I like to relax by watching DVDs, and David and the
kids are playing video games together a lot in the evening, and with
one TV we were having trouble all getting to do what we wanted. But I
still have moments–if the kids are watching Blue’s Clues on their TV
and I’m watching something on the TV in the living room–when I think
we’re on the slippery slope to being the house I grew up in, even
though a lot of other things would have to happen for us to get
there. I would have to stop liking my children, for instance, and
stop caring about what they want and give no thought or attention to
their emotional well-being. That’s not likely!

In the house I grew up in–and it sounds like in the one you grew up
in as well–TV was used to avoid reality, to pacify otherwise
bothersome children, and to help us avoid the fights that happened
whenever we spent more than a few minutes together. In my house now,
we use it to relax; to be entertained; to learn; for my five-year-
old, to have some non-napping down time. We use it for family
togetherness.

Because of how I grew up, and because of one period in my young adult
life when I was isolated and depressed (after moving cross-country to
be with a lover, only to get dumped upon arrival) and watched endless
TV–I felt so addicted to it at that time that I eventually packed it
away in my closet–all the anti-TV arguments really resonated with me
for a long time. But I have come to see that TV serves dysfunction in
a dysfunctional family. It was dysfunctional for me during a
dysfunctional time in my life. But it doesn’t have so much power that
it can turn a functional, happy family into a dysfunctional one, or
turn a cheerful, happy me into a depressed, addicted me.

***

Unschooling happens slowly. It’s a series of steps — mostly made
up of parents letting go of controls. I continue to have issues
with TV and sugar. Since the topic here is TV, I’ll focus on that.
My kids have unlimited access to movies and videos. They have their
own Netflix profile. We get movies from the library and the video
store. They watch things on Youtube. They have unlimited access to
computer and video games. But we don’t have cable which means we
get almost no television reception.

It’s true there is a book out there to support any side of any
issue. There seems to be a whole segment of unschoolers (outside of
this list) who support no tv. It’s an interesting subject – one
that has been talked to death here and on other lists. And one that
ties me in knots. Even Naomi Aldort advocates no TV. But I know
people who grew up without TV and they really resent it. I also
know my neighbor (who is 9) feels a bit like Matilda from Roald
Dahl’s book because her mom keeps the tv on all the time. But both
of those extremes have to do with adult-centered, top down control,
not unschooling.

Within unschooling, I can see both sides of to have tv or not. How
do you justify not having tv in a free house where we want our
children to have access to every part of our lives? But on the
other hand, it seems that electronic media becomes the eyepiece
through which kids perceive the world. And that doesn’t seem real.
We say that schools are constructs that separate children from the
real world. Teachers even say that. “When you get in the real
world, you won’t be able to get away with that.” But how real is 8
hours of Nickelodeon a day? I think tv is different than a book.
It can be so dazzling and stimulating, that books are no contest.

My kids have seen all of their Nick shows. Some days they watch a
lot of videos and movies, other days they don’t. They are far more
interested in books and playing outside than when we had cable.
Maybe the problem was the commercials and always something new
coming up next. They can still watch what they want to watch, but
they are not tied to the tv schedule. I know that the problems we
had with tv – crankiness, fighting, shutting me out – were partly
caused by my issues with tv. But knowing that didn’t change my
axieties about it. Perhaps I am still in the process of letting go
control.

***

When Dylan was little we were at homeschool park day and he saw his friend
get a spanking. He was so angry and shocked that a mom would hit her kid.

When he watched fake monsters stomp model trains on TV that wasn’t violence.
When he watched pretend bad guys pretend to shoot pretend good guys on TV,
that wasn’t violence. When he saw that mom hit her kid – that was
violence-.

I’ve known moms who were afraid of TV violence (as if that’s a real thing),
afraid it would harm their kids, but who yanked their kid arms, or spanked
or swatted their kids or who yelled and took away their kids possessions.
That’s a wagon load of real life violence more powerful than any TV show.

***

Guidance is a post from: Unschooling4Life.com: Information about unschooling