Rules vs. expectations; unschooling vs. parenting
I personally think applying the term “unschooling” to other topics
regarding children and choices is a misnomer. It just doesn’t make
sense to me.
I have always had a respectful, trusting, non-punitive relationship
with my kids (albeit never perfectly). Yet they have been in school
until this year. By their choice. Homeschooling was always given
to them as an option. It was finally chosen. They always had a
totally different range of choices, and a totally different
relationship with us than did their friends. “Freedoms” such as
what and how much tv, videogames, books, food, activities, etc. to
have and use. Again, we have never been perfectly consistent, but
have always strived for that ideal.
My children have always been happy, trusting and wonderful people,
who have learned many, many things of their own volition and in
their own free time and love learning. Yet they have always been in
school until this year.
So many of the traits and qualities and successes of unschooling I
see as traits and qualities and successes of decent parenting which
is found in all walks of life (albeit not very often), not just
among those who don’t use a structured curriculum for homeschooling.
I have read, and not participated much, on unschooling lists for
several years because that is where (on the internet) I found people
most in line with my philosophy towards my children. But I’ve
always been a little bit baffled by the implication that unschooling
is the only way to have that kind of relationship with your kids,
and that lack of curriculum necessarily goes along with lack of
rules so to speak.
Another thing that seems strange to me is the idea that respectful
and trusting relationships imply a lack of expectations. I have a
respectful and trusting relationship with my husband, yet I have
expectations of him. I expect him to be respectful of me and our
kids. I expect him to carry a share in our family partnership that
we agreed upon, which includes both of us producing income, keeping
the house livable, feeding the family, and taking care of the kids.
If I feel he isn’t meeting my expectations, and I examine them to
see if they are reasonable, we will talk about it. Unless I get all
pissy and yell about it first, lol.
In the same way I have expectations of my kids. I expect them to
treat each other and their parents respectfully. I expect them to
participate in keeping the house straightened up at their own
ability level. I expect them to help take care of our animals.
My family also has expectations of me. They expect me to
participate in keeping the house up, producing income, taking care
of them, helping them when they need help, etc.
Expectations are fluid; if I’m sick, nobody expects me to make
dinner. If my husband lost his job nobody would expect him to
produce income until he found another way to do that. If someone is
out of town, others take care of that person’s animals. If my
husband or I decided we didn’t want to produce income any more, we
would discuss how to make that work.
I can’t see any mistrust or disrespect in our family dynamics due to
these expectations that we have of each other. Nothing is designed
to teach anybody a lesson or to make sure they “turn out” a certain
way. It is simply the way we live together in harmony (obviously
not harmony all the time, but that’s the purpose of it). Of course,
the idea of expectations could be used to excuse all kinds of
negative actions within a family, and maybe that is why it is not
talked about much within the context of radical unschooling.
Expectations do not equal rules; do not lead to mistrust, dishonesty
or sneakiness; can lead to satisfaction for everybody.
So… in my opinion, having a trusting and cooperative relationship
with your children is a wonderful idea that coincides wonderfully
with unschooling but shouldn’t fall under the definition of
unschooling as intended by John Holt;
and, having a trusting and cooperative relationship with your
children does not require a lack of mutual expectations within that
relationship. Since parents hold the Big-People-Money-Maker power
within the relationship it is their responsibility to be constantly
soul-searching and vigilant regarding that relationship.
Thoughts, anyone? :)
***
The big difference, imo, is how the word “expectations” is used and
defined. There are broad “expectations” that are based on previous
experience–i.e. deductive reasoning: because the sun comes up every
day, I deduce that it will come up every day. I “expect” my dh to go to
work every day because he enjoys going to work. There are days when I
wish he’d decide to stay home, and I’d certainly support him if he no
longer enjoyed what he did and wanted to stop going to work. I “expect”
him to discuss a potential job switch (which we just went through) with
us as a family before making it, out of respect for all the members of
the family and the way that decision would affect us all.
I don’t have those same kinds of “expectations” for my children, in part
because I don’t have the same kind of history that would back up such
deductions. Similarly, I don’t have the same kind of “expectations” for
consideration of others because they haven’t had the same time on this
planet that my dh has in order to fully grasp in advance the ways in
which their actions may impact others and because their actions aren’t
likely to carry the same weight as, for example, dh choosing to switch
jobs without consulting us.
While I agree with the statement, “expectations are fluid,” I’m not sure
I agree with the comparisons, generalizations and extrapolations made in
the examples, iykwim. So, while I might be quite put out if dh announced
tomorrow that he was moving to Chicago, I wouldn’t be remotely phased at
my kids (almost 9, 7 and 6) not meeting my personal need for respect in
one of our interactions. Quite the contrary, I believe my kids are still
learning the nuances of interpersonal relations and “expectations,” or,
as I would be more comfortable phrasing and considering it,
consideration of others “needs,” and I believe that part of my job as
their parent is to help them negotiate and consider others’ needs,
including my own. I don’t “expect” my kids to know how to “treat each
other and their parents respectfully” or to even know what that means at
their age, nor do I “expect” them to be perfect practitioners of that at
any age, as I’m certainly not perfect by any stretch. I think sometimes
that parents have the tendency to hold their children to higher
standards than they hold themselves to, and I find that particularly
problematic, whether it be in the context of behavior or health or
whatever. If I can’t always do whatever myself, then I have no business
“expecting” whatever from anyone else, basically. Though, there’s a big
difference between not being perfect and being regularly abusive, iykwim.
***
I guess my “expectations” aren’t based entirely on what has happened
in the past, but on what we agree are good and reasonable ways to live. So,
I might be a bitch to my husband today but hopefully he won’t expect me to
always be a bitch <g>
I don’t really expect my kids to be considerate in the sense that I assume
they always will; instead it’s more in the sense of considering it
reasonable that people will be considerate to the best of their ability. So
when they’re not considerate it’s something that is noticeable and that we
will talk about.
I should have clarified my meaning of the word
“expectations” in my original post. Hopefully it makes more sense now.
Some of my kids are a bit older than yours at 15, 11 and 7 so in a lot of
ways they *do* know how to treat their parents and each other respectfully.
That definitely changes and grows with age and maturity. I think I agree
with the way you phrased this.
***
But what is “decent parenting”?
It’s such a vague term that everyone will have a different
definition. It just means, basically, applying your own values to
parenting. It can extend to authoritarian to hands off and everything
in between!
I think there are two big factors in raising happy, respectful, kind
kids: personality and respect. And I think *your* definition of
“decent parenting” is being respectful of your kids.
There isn’t much we can do about personality! ;-) so I think respect
is key. And I think when other methods work it’s because either the
child’s personality meshes with the method or there’s a whole lot of
respect going on that’s counteracting the disrespect inherent in so
many other parenting methods.
My parents played out the roles they were supposed to play: my mom
took care of the house, my dad went to work and took care of the
maintenance. My sister’s and my roles were to play and do well in
school. They took us on yearly vacations and played games and did
puzzles occasionally. I don’t remember personal interaction.
Basically they did things for us but not a lot *with* us.
It worked because I’m a big rule follower, I *like* to know how
things are “supposed” to be, and was a natural at school. I don’t
even remember there being rules because I took to them so naturally.
My sister less so, but her need to question things was only slightly
more than mine.
There “philosophy” of explain the rules and let them run free worked
because of our personalities. I think it would fail miserably for
lots of families! In the end it was luck and genetics ;-)
But I think respect works regardless of personality. And I think that
when inherently disrespectful parenting practices “work” it’s because
respect (or personality!) are counteracting them. It’s really the
respect that’s working, not the parenting method. How to respect kids
we can discuss. How to get kids’ personalities to mesh with a
parent’s preferred parenting method we can’t ;-)
***
Decent parenting by *my* definition of course <g> I don’t think it means
applying your own values to parenting though… my dad values his
relationship with his God and his wife more than that with his kids. That’s
not decent parenting. Parents of lots of my kids’ friends value their
social standing and what others will think more than their kids. That’s not
decent parenting.
To me, decent means respecting your kids as equal human beings with human
being rights and responsibilities instead of property, trophies, pets,
inconveniences, etc; obviously those rights and responsibilities can’t be
just thrown at them but they grow into them gradually.
I have seen this in my own family and other families who are in school, or
who are using curriculum, or who are not using any curriculum. Not often in
enough in any, imo.
Like Pam said, I may have been reading between the lines a bit too much.
I’ve read these lists for years *while* my kids were in school (by choice)
and always *felt* like an oddball but never actually asked what others’
perspectives were. I have one that’s back in school after taking half the
year out, and who thinks public high school is the best thing since sliced
bread. Talk about an oddball, lol. He loves the sports and the social
thing and doesn’t care about jumping through all their hoops in order to do
what he wants to do.
I’m glad I brought it up here because it has really clarified a lot in my
mind. I love a lot of what many of you say and it turns out some of the
inconsistencies I thought I saw may not have really been there.
***
While I have expectations of David (dh) I do so because as an adult he
agreed to a certain kind of life with me. So I expect him to be faithful
in our marriage. I expect him to provide an income. I expect him to be
kind to his family. And if he can’t do those things or if he changes his
mind I expect him to tell me. There is an “or else” to the failure to
meet those expectations. <g> If he’s unfaithful he’ll lose my trust and
maybe be divorced. If he can’t work he’ll have to change the standard of
living he’s accustomed to. If he’s not kind to us he’ll have to change
that or he’ll be asked to leave.
But Dylan didn’t make any agreements with us upon his conception and
birth. We didn’t give him a choice. We just made him and then kept him.
He didn’t get to listen to our terms and agree or decline. He didn’t
get to present us with his terms.
I never expected Dylan to help keep the house straightened up for a
couple of reasons. Initially it was because as a child I had to help
and I resented it. As Dylan’s mom I thought if resentment was the price
of tidy, tidy was too expensive. <g> But as I became a more mindful
parent it became more about whether it was really Dylan’s responsibility.
*I* was the one with the vision of “tidy.” *I* was the one who’d made
the choices about furniture arrangement for the sake of *my* convenience.
David and I were the people who’d decided we’d live in house. We were
paying the mortgage. We’d decided it was worth it. None of that was up
to Dylan. It wasn’t his responsibility to meet my expectations for our
home. His expectations were very different. He expected to have a
happy day. He expected to find his toys where he left them. He expected
to be able to play. I believed that his expectations were just as valid
as mine, and maybe more valid. Mine seemed to be based on societal norms
for standards of acceptable levels of tidy. <g> (I got over that.
)<bwg>
When I began to view his need for freedom to play and explore as equal to
my need for a minimal level of tidy I found my happy place. I could
straighten up and clean without making him feel like he was in the way in
his own home. I accepted that he had as much right to have his stuff on
the table and coffee table and floor as I did. My stuff was rugs,
pottery, candles, books, decorative doo-dads. My stuff was pretty and
made our home look nice. My stuff still wasn’t more important than his
stuff.<g> I wasn’t more deserving of space for things than he was.
I would say, out loud, “I’m going to do the dishes so we have a nice
clean kitchen.” or “I’m going to move your stuff for a minute to wash
this table.” Or, after dinner, “Let me take your plate to the sink.” He
saw the value in cleaning up. He began to participate. When he was very
little, if he saw me wipe the table before dinner, he’d go get a
washcloth, sometimes dry, sometimes sopping wet, <g> and start wiping
stuff: His toes, the cat, the floor, the chairs, my shoes. <g> If he
wanted to play at the coffee table he would often get a cloth and wipe it
first. After he was finished with food he’d take his dishes to the sink.
I know when I come downstairs in the morning Dylan will have put his
things away and taken his dishes to the sink. I know he’ll have locked
the doors and turned out the lights. It’s not that I expect it in a “do
it or else” kind of way but I know he’s responsible. If he didn’t do
one or all of those things I’d know he had a good reason. If the reason
was that he was tired and forgot, that’s a good reason.<g>
For years Dylan has been responsible and helpful. Part of that is his
nature. Part, I believe, is because we lived like this was his house as
much as ours but we didn’t force our expectations on him. He had the
freedom and time to learn that because it was his house too, he benefited
from it being tidy. He came to see this house as partly his
responsibility and he has no resentment about cleaning and helping
because he hasn’t been held to someone else’s expectation.
It’s the same with our animals. The old dog is mine and was mine before
I ever got David or Dylan. The old cat, too. The newer dog and cat and
frogs and bird came later but the decision was mine. I am the one who
is home most of the time, I’m the one who pays for food and vet bills.
Dylan could not bring a critter into the house unless I agreed. He
doesn’t have a steady income that would pay for vet bills and food. He’d
need the approval of the people who’d be paying for that. So the
responsibility for critter care is on me.
And just like with housework, as I took care of animals I’d say “You guys
need fresh water.” And, “Oh, no! Your bowl is empty!” And “MAN! There
are dog bombs all over the yard, it’s time to scoop!” Dylan became
aware of the level of care critters needed. He loves the animals and was
happy to contribute to their care. I’m sure I could have ruined his
willingness to be patient with or to clean up after our old dog now if I
had expected him to be responsible for the animals when he was younger.
“Expected” in the “or else,” kind of way, I mean. Or else he’d get
yelled at, or else he’d be shamed, or else he’d be punished, etc.
All along though, I have been able to ask for help. I was able to ask
for and get help from my five year old when I wanted it and it’s the same
with my teenager. He has helped happily when I’ve asked and he helps
when I don’t ask. Again, that’s partly his nature, but I believe it’s
partly due to the freedom he’s had to learn the value of helping. I
think of expecting a child to do chores the same way I think of requiring
a child to do workbooks or drills. It’s not necessary. It doesn’t
necessarily contribute to the learning most adults think it will and it
can cause stress in the relationship.
If unschoolers can trust a child will learn math concepts and reading and
writing they can trust a child will learn helpfulness. And just like
unschoolers are prepared to accept later reading by a child if the child
isn’t ready to read at eight or nine or ten, they should be prepared to
accept the helpfulness to come at exactly the time the child is ready.
That’s hard for parents as they tend to think they “deserve” help when
*they* are ready for it. But helpfulness is a gift and we don’t demand
gifts from gift givers. We don’t sit around waiting for gifts to be
bestowed upon us. We give the gifts we have; time, patience, freedom,
helpfulness and when that beautiful thing blossoms from our gift giving
we just sit back in awe of the amazing nature of our kids. <g>
***
Or say, “Hey, want to come help me with feeding the pets? Can you
hold the door for me? You know, I feel uncomfortable sitting down to
eat when I know the dogs are hungry.”
Giving information means giving them insight to your thinking. They
might wonder, “Hmmm – do “I” feel uncomfortable knowing the dogs are
hungry?” Their answer might be that they don’t – but you’ve added a
little tidbit of awareness of the dogs – that is how empathy grows -
it doesn’t spring forth fully formed.
***
I didn’t do a good job of this with my kids – I’m making up for it,
some, but my kids are older and have a lot of baggage already
instilled in them, over picking stuff up around the house. This is
probably the main thing they get grumpy over, with each other. My
fault – I’ve modeled getting cranky when other people in the family
are messy.
***
Adults have had time here, have experience and have reached the magical
age of adulthood when they can enter into legally binding agreements. An
adult saying to another adult, “yes, I’ll live with you and share the
responsibility of a home with you ” is not the same as a child being
born into a family where the adults have already made all the decisions
about the level of cleanliness and orderliness the house should have.
Adults who agree to share responsibility do so (usually and hopefully<g>)
without a huge difference in power between the agreeing parties. Most of
us did not get married out of fear of what the other person would do if
we said “no.” Most of us did not agree to whatever standard of house
keeping our partner decided upon without some discussion or out of fear.
I think that unless parents are very mindful, and even sometimes *when*
parents are very mindful children understand where the authority is and
feel compelled to comply. So I believe there is a difference. We
accept that children can’t enter into legally binding agreements. The
reason there’s a law is that children may be unduly influenced by a
person in a position of power and agree to something they would not have
agreed to except under pressure or that they might not have enough
experience to know the agreement was not in their best interest.
So, I don’t think bringing a child into an existing situation where the
standards for clean and orderly have already been set by someone bigger
and more powerful is the same as two adults equal in the eyes of the law
deciding together to share the responsibility of a home.
But I don’t think you’re talking about requiring chores. You’re saying
expecting kids to help isn’t a bad thing. I think it *can* be bad when
there is an “or else.” And I think it’s a very rare situation where a
parent has an expectation of a kid and if the kid fails to meet that
expectation there is no repercussion.
But more than that I’m saying kids can learn to pick up after themselves
and others and to be thoughtful without (what could be) the pressure of
the expectations of the parent.
My thoughts about Dylan were not that he “should” learn to pick up after
himself and be helpful. My understanding was that he would see the value
of such things and choose to do them. I suspect you mean much the same
thing.
I think in a multi person household picking up after oneself is helpful.
<g> And I don’t believe anyone can “teach” helpfulness. We can model
it and in doing so demonstrate the value of getting and giving help.
Children who live where it is modeled understand the value and determine
for themselves it’s worthwhile. We can require a child to do things
that would be helpful to us but forcing a certain action is not the same
as learning. Children who are forced to be helpful don’t necessarily
internalize the value of helpfulness.
***
The point of view of recognizing children didn’t enter into an
agreement with us isn’t meant to *justify* our expectations but to
help people get inside kids heads. If we treat someone (a child) who
hasn’t entered into an agreement the same as we treat someone (a
spouse) who has, it isn’t reasonable to expect them to react the same
to our requests.
It’s reasonable to expect kids to grow taller but if a child doesn’t
meet those expectations, it doesn’t affect how we parent them ;-)
though if they’re beyond the bounds of what feels normal, we might
take them to the doctor.
It’s reasonable to expect them to become more competent at what they
can do, to get a better grasp on how the world works and what is
necessary to keep a home functioning. But if they don’t meet our
expectations … what? Conventional parenting would blame the child.
Or the adult for not teaching them properly. Better — in terms of
creating a great relationship — is to trust our kids that they’re
doing their best and to look to the environment that might be holding
them back or expectations that might be unreasonable.
