Unschooling

Principles

I just read Danielle’s article on principles vs. rule. Now I am
wondering -
from those of you who have made this switch fully – which principles are
relevant for your households? Would anyone mind sharing?

—

Kindness
Generosity
Patience
Trust
Respect for ourselves and others
Gentleness with animals
Thoughtfulness
Safety
Honesty
Flexibility
Courtesy
Gratefulness
Empathy

There may be some others, but these jumped out of my head immediately.

—

How do you implement those principles?

I still struggle with my boys punching each other :( I say, “don’t hit,
use your words!” and they still whack each other.

My oldest also has a tendency to want whatever his brothers have. It
annoys me very much because they are younger and have little in
comparison to him yet he’s grabbing their stuff. DS is still going
through deschooling, so is it related to destressing from school? Or is
it he is jealous of them?

—

“We are kind and gentle with each other.”

“It’s my job to make sure *each and every ONE* of you feels safe in
this house.”

And you need to be close by. Why are they left alone long enough for
things to escalate to punching?

Sandra told her boys there are three steps:

1) talk it out
2) if that doesn’t work, get an adult to help you work it out
3) if that doesn’t work, you can hit each other

BUT! They have to go through steps one and two FIRST! <G>

—

I have the same policy for them, #1 talk it out, #2 ask mom for help.
As for leaving them alone, that annoys me to no end because no parent
ever is right there supervising their children eyeball to eyeball 24/7.
The moment I look away somebody comes up to me saying he hit me! I am
so irritated and frustrated with them about that.

One time the oldest punched one of his twin brothers in the nose so hard
it bled. We were in the van driving back home from school and I normally
have my rearview mirror planted square on them, but this time I
concentrated on traffic until I saw the tussle in the back. I
immediately pulled over and told DS to get out of the van. He asked if I
was going to leave him, I said no. He had to stay and wait while I
cleaned up his brother. I told him that I can’t allow him back in if
he’s going to be a danger to his brother. I let him back in after he
apologized and after he answered affirmatively my question of whether
he’s going to be safe with his brothers.

I still feel angry over this. I’ve tried explaining things over and over
and I did the same #1 #2 policy in my own accord. It’s not working.

I feel angry about oldest DS’s tendency to take things away from his
twin brothers. It’s constant competition and jealousy and I do NOT want
this for them. I want peace in my house. :(

Ok venting over – I think the big issue here is that I’m Deaf and they
do not sign when they’re quarreling. So how can I intervene when I can’t
catch when things are escalating? (Why my children don’t sign all the
time is a long story and something I wish did not happen.) Often oldest
DS says one of his (4 yr old) brothers has said something that he
disagreed with and I ask him if whacking him solved the problem.

I think the issue here is that he’s outnumbered – the twins are close to
each other and he’s alone. We also have a lot of things shared in
common. He’s had “his” things before but as the twins grow into his
stuff things get a little mixed up. He grabs their things as well.

I’m guessing a solution would be to establish separate toy bins for each
boy and have their names on them, and separate items for each of them?
This way they can have true ownership and feel free to share… And
instead of doing the steps which aren’t working, I would try the “we are
kind to each other” tack. Any more suggestions?

—

Don’t be irritated with them! See it as a cry for help. They don’t
know what to do or how to solve the problem.

They’re in a mindset that says “If I don’t grab what I want then I’m
not going to be able to get it.”

You need to help them out of that.

You’re in a mindset that you need to stop the hitting. What will help
is looking past the hitting to what’s causing the hitting. Obviously
stop the hitting but then focus on the problem. You’re turning the
hitting into the problem and the original problem is probably getting
lost in the confusion. Focus on the original problem. Help them
figure out how to fix that. Help them know that you want to help
everyone get what they need *and* feel safe.

Rather than focusing on changing them from kids who hit to kids who
don’t hit, help them find ways not to hit. When they hit it’s a cry
for help. They really don’t know what else to do. Telling them not to
is obviously not working.

Focus on what led up to the hitting. If it’s toys they’re fighting
over, help them figure out ahead of time ways to not fight over the
toys. Involve them all in helping solve the problem and listen to
their ideas. If the ideas don’t pan out, help them revise them and
think up new ideas.

The transition period is rough. They’re used to fighting to get their
needs met. They’re going to hear your attempts at helping them
problem solve as just new ways to say “Stop hitting and fix this
problem now.” It will take a while until they gain confidence that
you really are committed to helping them get what they want.

—

> Irritated and frustrated that someone came to you for help?

I’d be fine with them coming up to me for help but I feel like on this
issue we have talked it into a morass, where no one seems to be
listening to each other and people are still getting hit.

I feel those emotions because we’ve gone through this over and over
again. “Please don’t hit your brother, it hurts. When your brother is
done with the toy, you can have it. What time will you be done with
this toy? Let him have the toy, it is his turn. So what if your
brother said no over something that doesn’t make sense? Does he have
control over that and does hitting him solve the problem?”

> It’s a small house, right? How far can you actually BE from them?

I used to physically separate them into time-outs but since I hurt my
back and snapped my ACL I’ve been unable to get into the thick of things
without getting hurt myself. I have to yell to stop things from a
distance and even then it doesn’t work. So I feel powerless too. :( I’m
laid up now, just finished with ACL reconstruction surgery.

> So it *is* a fear.
> Whether he’s lying or not?

How could I have approached this situation better, then? There was blood
all over his brother’s face and we were heading towards a construction
zone. They were fighting because the twin had said no and pouted over
something, both had been hitting on each other. There are real-world
consequences to beating up people – including lock-up. My thinking was,
remove the aggressor from the situation NOW. Then clean up and talk
about it. I am out of ideas if this only creates a revenge complex in
them :(

> Change the anger to curiosity.

It is difficult because I feel stumped on this. I’ve read the Siblings
Without Rivalry book, joined this list, consensual living, read all I
could and I’m still not getting it right.

> Why do they feel compettitive and jealous? What is causing that?

The bad old days I think. :( There were major power and control issues
going on in our home until DH and I separated abt 2 years ago. Since
then he’s gone to counseling but DS has grown up in that environment and
I really want to change that.

> Yeah—but how is that helping them?

I thought it’s help him see the futility of that option. It’s difficult
if I’m out of ideas myself too. Maybe it’ll be different after each of
them has their own space?

You know it just occurred that maybe because DS has more options
compared to the twins (one said recently, “I want to be homeschooled!”)
and because DS tries to control them, they feel powerless. So they hold
onto “insignificant” things like toys or verbal comments because that’s
where they feel like they have control. The twins are still in
preschool and my mother was just telling me about how the teacher needs
to keep order, etc. DS also probably feels powerless himself from when
he was in school.

I’m not perfect myself either, and the kids copy my mistakes. My
thinking is away from the “control kids” model but when things get
stressful I find my ideas and options narrowing down.

Let’s take one difficult situation for example -

DS likes to sing in the van. I am unaware of this unless I see his mouth
moving and head bobbling. Singing does not bother me. Everything would
be fine and dandy if DS didn’t insist he sings alone or has total
silence instead. The end result is usually a lot of drama. I don’t
have a means for monitoring volume in the van.

Any suggestions on how to defuse this?

—

> I still struggle with my boys punching each other :( I say, “don’t
> hit,
> use your words!” and they still whack each other.

Apparently they need more help. You’re seeing the world through your
eyes and wondering why they can’t too. See the world through their eyes.

Assume they’re doing the best they can. The advice you’re giving them
obviously is not working for them to solve the problem. If I’d kept
asking my sister to give something to me when we were kids and she
wouldn’t .. then what? If mom said only use words and didn’t give me
a tool to use after the words had failed it would be maddening. I’d
want to smack her! ;-) What other choice would I have when the only
tool she’d given me had failed?

Sandra Dodd had 3 steps:

1) talk it out
2) get an adult to help
3) then hit

She has a lot of good writing at:

http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting

Also you need to be present more. Mindful parenting isn’t a list of
rules to hand to kids and send them off with. Be their partner in
helping them get what they want. Rather than seeing situations as
something to fix, figure out ways to *help* them get what they want.
It’s a subtle but important role shift.

> My oldest also has a tendency to want whatever his brothers have. It
> annoys me very much because they are younger and have little in
> comparison to him yet he’s grabbing their stuff.

What you’ve written dismisses his feelings. He has a need and he’s
trying to fulfill it and you’re blowing off his need because they’re
younger and he’s older. That’s not only maddening but whittling away
at your relationship with him. He sees you putting them ahead of him.

Separate his need from his actions. Don’t dismiss his need just
because he doesn’t have the tools to meet it. *Help* him meet it.

That’s doesn’t mean everyone will get what they want immediately. But
help them build trust in you that you will work hard to help
*everyone* get what they want.

The reason kids keep fighting over something they want is because
they’ve learned from past behavior that’s the only way to get it.
Give them the confidence that their needs are important to you and
you will help them.

—

And, again, don’t think of those as rules. You aren’t going to *make*
your kids be thoughtful. It isn’t a standard that you’ll make them
live up to.

Be thoughtful toward them. You can also help them think up ways you
can both do something thoughtful for someone else who has done nice
things for you. (And if they don’t want to, you do it because it’s
important to you to be thoughtful. If you don’t want to do it on your
own, you shouldn’t be making them do it! Do it because you feel it’s
the right thing to do, not because it’s a lesson you want to impose
on your kids. *Live* your principles.)

Live these. Use these in your interactions with them and others. Help
them use them as tools to figure out problems. That’s what they are:
tools to help us decide if something is in keeping with our philosophy.

Here’s something I wrote a bit ago:

No right or wrong way to unschool
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/unschooling/noonerightwaytounschool.html

—

Posted in The Basics | Tagged principles, unschooling basics

Is my life too boring for unschooling?

I have read many of John Holts books and numerous unschooling
websites/blogs and I am both excited and nervous. Most of the
featured families seem to live much more enriching lives than our
family. I am not complaining, I love our life and felt content, but
now I wonder if it is “enough” of an environment to unschool. We
live in the suburbs instead of on a farm or in a city, although we
do go to museums and outings a couple times a month. We don’t have
a homebased enterprise where the children can learn about economics
and we don’t have jobs where we can take them.

I do volunteer work,
but it is with battered women, so I can’t involve the kids there,
although I am sure that there are community programs where the kids
could get involved if we decided to go in that direction instead. I
am not super creative, although I can work a glue gun in a pinch,
but I don’t make my own furniture or clothes. We do enjoy our
children and like spending time with them, and as we are learning
more about unschooling we are shedding a lot of our prior notions
about what is kid stuff and what is for adults (although I still
can’t get hubby to let dear son use power tools—-he is 4)

So I guess I am wondering how average (god I hate that word) people
unschool. Do they? Or maybe this is also an opportunity to really
examine the “averageness” of our lives and make some changes? Are
there any reading materials that include how children are soaking up
knowledge in the midst of conventional life? Or are the featured
families I am reading about not the norm but the “goal”?

***

We don’t live on a farm or in a city – it’s 15-20 minutes to the
mall (and DS has his own Starbuck’s card lol). I WOH fulltime, DH is
fulltime at home with DS. Our days consist of lots of videogames
(both DH and DS love them, I’m just getting going on an old GameBoy
with Pokemon Ruby), movies, TV, occasional campfires in the back
yard (don’t forget the ‘smores!!), lots of time hanging out with our
games (both guys have Nintendo DSs and I have the GBA) at Starbucks.
We look at stars when the night sky is really clear – but we don’t
know all the constellations and we don’t (yet) have a super
telescope. Yesterday DH spent a good part of the day making a case
for his DS from duct tape (it’s pretty cool). DS and I want one too
so we’re going to Staples tonight to pick up multi colors of duct
tape. Most of what goes into blogs and postings are the “highlights”
and occasional “lowlights”, not the average days. I might post about
how DS did this or that cool thing but that’s one “postable” thing
among dozens of days.

A typical week is basically: I work, they game, housework gets done,
we eat on a fairly regular basis, grocery shopping gets done, we
watch movies/TV (old episodes of MASH and Monty Python are ‘hot’ at
our house right now), we play with the dog, watch the fish in the
fish tank (nothing ‘fancy’, some mollies, some neon tetras, and of
course the scum sucker fish), maybe play some board games. That’s
about it. Oh, we do have one ‘date night’ per week, that alternates
between DH and DS (I get 4 dates each month, they each get 2). When
DH and I go out, DS visits MIL and FIL.

I wouldn’t write off the kids being involved with your volunteer
work. Yes, they probably can’t come with you BUT they could
collect/donate toys for the kids of the women that come through the
shelter (for example).

You’re focusing on what you don’t have, don’t do, etc. What DO you
have? What DO you love? What DO the kids love? If there are things
you’d love to do but haven’t, look for ways to explore them. Big
exciting stuff all the time isn’t really typical as far as I’ve
seen. Curiousity about the whole world is. And when you’re curious
about everyone and everything, life really isn’t so boring -there’s
always something new to explore, do, learn – whether it’s clearing a
bit of backyard space for a firepit or learning how to make sushi or
shopping in an ethnic market or going to a park in a different part
of town. Your kids already know this, learn from them.

***

>> I do volunteer work,
> but it is with battered women, so I can’t involve the kids there,
> although I am sure that there are community programs where the
kids
> could get involved if we decided to go in that direction instead.

That’s something to look into if your kids are interested – maybe
see if there’s a food pantry associated with the shelter so all
y’all can work together.

But the overall question is more “are the kids bored”? Real life
isn’t always mile-a-minute excitement, and that’s a good thing. I
enjoy having long days of doing “nothing much” with my kids -
nesting.

That sort of thing doesn’t make good press, so it doesn’t get
written about much. Yesterday, my dd and I made playdoh and she and
Ray played on the new PS2 most of the day. She climbed trees and
spun on her sit-n-spin at various times, found a little mud to
smoosh, and dug a really nice hole in the sawdust pile. Ray worked
on making a spear and did some target-practice with it in between
playing on the PS2. That’s about it. Pretty normal day. We do have
some excitement now and then, but our life is pretty cozy, rather
than thrilling.

***

So your kids haven’t won the spelling bee, enrolled in college
at 12 and found a cure for cancer? You are not hosting cow milking lessons while
wearing your denim jumper? You and the kids did not build your home from the
plans on the back of a cereal box?

And, yet, some of us manage to unschool. :)

A dear unschooling friend and I joke that nobody really suspects what we are up
to. We look so white bread suburban it is ridiculous. She’s driving around in
her minivan and me in my (very used :) ) Volvo station wagon. The kids are being
carted to this event or that activity. DH’s both go to work and we Moms stay
home. How “Leave It To Beaver” could we look?? :)

But the secret is that what things look like from the outside is not what
matters.

My kids are being carted to things they chose! For instance.

When we are at home, we are not sitting around the kitchen table crunching math
worksheets. We are online or DS is gaming or DH and DD are puttering in the yard
or we are lounging with whatever book we picked up at the library or. . . etc. .
. just glorious everyday life. In a loving home with mutual support.

We have not built any rocket ships in the kitchen sink but we do what we want to
do and are happily unschooling. And you can too! :)

***

LOL I always love it when this stereotype pops up because DH is the at
home parent with DS, going places and doing things. He’d look so
loverly in a denim jumper with his big old beard! Think a youngish
Santa (pre-white hair) in a jumper and that’d be DH. It’d make it a
little tough getting in and out of our big, black Ford F150 fullsize
pickup. LOL

***

> You are not hosting cow milking lessons while wearing your denim
>jumper?

Hey you ALL…<<<G>>> We don’t give any ” lessons” on milking cows but if any
of you ever want to come milk some we can certainly show you how.
And my DH wears bibs/jeans overalls ( AKA denin jumper ) everyday morning and
night to milk our cows…lol.
My ds wears them with a red shirt so he can be like Super Mario ( he couldn’d
care less about the cows right now).

***

I’ve been struggling with the same concerns about whether our ‘average’ life
measures up for an unschooling environment. Some of the unschooler’s blogs I’ve read from
various sites have left me questioning if I am a slacker! Granted, I have a new
baby, and have to let a LOT of things go, but I have a hard time watching my
4.8yo occupy himself so much with TV and video games, which I allow only so I
can have a breather.

But when I take stock of what we accomplish in a days’
time, from conversations we have (that a month later he’ll repeat ver-batem), to
cooking time shared, and the oh-so-many learning opportunities that fall

in-between our ‘activities’. I’m raising a compassionate, self-motivated, well grounded little boy, who is a joy to be around.
I guess the question is, am I self-motivated? In my own way, I am. During my
entire childhood I had a scheduled life. To this day, my mother attempts to
impose a schedule on me (to no avail). I have chosen an unscheduled life,
whereby I live by inspiration. ‘What do I feel like doing now’ is what I live
by. I offer the same lifestyle to my children. I feel it is their right, as is
it mine. When I am still, inspiration comes.

Some days I crave learning new
things. I find my 4.8yo is the same (as I presume we all are, given the freedom
to be still long enough to listen to ourselves.)
Writing gives me clarity, and I have found the reassurance I was seeking by
just writing about this. I guess one unschooling principle that applies to this
subject is ‘not imposing outside standards/expectations on our children’s
development.’ Now if we could only figure out how to take that advice re: our
own parental development!

***

I really appreciate all the responses! I guess I knew that it would
be okay, but just needed some mirroring that it is enough just to live
and learn together. I need to be gentle with myself as well in this
adventure. Of course it goes against everything I and most people
know about education and the trust will grow over time. I feel like I
am about to jump off a high dive without being able to see that there
is water underneath.

***

> I feel like I
> am about to jump off a high dive without being able to see that
there
> is water underneath.
>

The water is fine!!!!!

JUMP!

and enjoy.

Posted in The Basics | Tagged boring, Life

The Basics of Unschooling

I homeschool my three children using the
Charlotte Mason method but I am very interested in learning more
about unschooling and may possibly start trying to implement this in
our home. Anyone familiar with the Charlotte Mason Method? I was
wondering if I could some how implement both.

With the Charlotte
Mason method we do nature, narrations after reading, listen to folk,
hymn, and classical music, picture study, short lessons, and we read
from real books instead of textbooks. I was thinking that I could
do unschooling and try to incorporate some of the aspects of
Charlotte Mason into our daily routine such as the following:
Playing classical music in the backgroud while during different
things, going on nature walks, keeping real living books around-
without telling they must read them but having them available,
Showing them a picture-taking it away- and telling them to tell me
about it, having a read aloud time with my family, etc.

What’s a typical day like for the unschooling family?

***

Basics? Trust. Patience. Respect. Generosity. Kindness.

***

Here are some of the stumbling blocks I see:

There’s nothing wrong with playing classical music in the background,
if that’s what you all like, but if you’re valuing that style of music
above Rock-n-roll, bluegrass, folk, reggae or any other style of
music, then you’re limiting your world. Unschooling is about expanding
our world.

Classical music isn’t inherently better than any other style of music,
nor does it lead to more/better learning experiences.

Nature walks are great, if they’re allowed to be enjoyed by each
person rather than turned into some kind of “lesson”.

If someone showed me a picture and took it away, asking me to tell
them about it, I’d be really annoyed. Unschooling is all about
authentic interactions. If moments are contrived in order to “teach”
or get information into our children that WE think is important, we
miss the more important things that THEY think are important.

If you want to get to unschooling, take a deep breathe and realize
that Charlotte Mason was one person, with her own ideas and prejudices
about what is proper and good to learn. She had some great ideas too.
The problem I see with any learning method that places certain
activities as more valuable, is it misses the point that the child
right in front of us has their own interests that may or may not
coincide with that method.

The most important thing for me is to assist my children in exploring
the world in their own way. The Charlotte Mason ideas appealed to me,
but my video-game loving children have their own ideas!:)

***

So expose your children to everything….books ..art ..nature
..music..handicrafts etc … create that rich enviroment, BUT don’t have daily lessons or a daily routine. For instance don’t *require* a narration after your child reads a book, but you might find yourself just chatting * together* about the book *IF* your child *wants* to. Don’t *require* daily copywork, but you might find your child *wants* and *enjoys* writing in a journal or keeping a book of quotes, etc.

And YOU go ahead and do the things YOU are passionate about, whether from CM
or not…. and they might join in…or NOT. But respect their choice.

We unschool… and our days are *filled* with nature and art and books and
music and handicrafts…. AND TV and video games ! <<G>>

Just live life doing what you all love and see …..

***

Here’s something I started doing a while ago whenever I thought of
something I thought my kids would like to do. Rather than push it on
them – whether it was a movie or a book, a garden or a nature
journal. I do it myself. I have read children’s books that I thought
looked interesting. I have discovered so many wonderful things that
*I* enjoy. I started keeping a list of backyard birds on the back
door. Every time I see a new one, I identify it with my bird book and
write it down. In the process, through watching me do it and asking
questions, my kids have learned about identifying birds. One day a
bird got into the house while I was outside. My son described it to
me in detail and we discovered that it was a Carolina Wren.
***

Posted in The Basics | Tagged basics of unschooling, homeschool, unschooling basics

Deschooling

I’m a newbie to this list but not to the idea of unschooling. I’ve thought
of myself as an unschooler since my daughter was about 4. The kids are now
ages 8 and 4.

My daughter went to preschool until she was 4 and then no
longer wanted to attend cause she didn’t like her new teacher. My son tried
preschool this past fall. He was so eager to try and after two weeks
adamantly wanted out and has sworn off school since. I thought that going to
school might help him make more friends in our town–he thought it would be
like Barney :-/ Boy, were we both wrong!

The idea of deschooling has so many layers I think. On Sandra Dodd’s
website, she recommends some movies to watch while deschooling. Its hard for
me to not think of this as an assignment, an ingredient in learning
necessary for me to really deschool. Does anyone kwim? Or reading Holt. If I
only read enough, I will “get it”. If I only read enough emails on this
list, I will “get it”. Its schooling that encourages this sort of thinking
of knowledge coming from authorities from without–its hard to just think
about ideas as simply ideas–to be mulled over, shelved or acted on.

We went out to eat at to a hibachi steakhouse for my daughter’s birthday .
We were sitting with some strangers (if you’ve never been to such a place,
everyone sits around the grill and watches the chef throw utensils, stir fry
food, make an onion volcano, and make fire.

The people we were sitting with were from our town. Of course, the conversation turned immediately to school. These people were chatty question askers. Does anyone else not want to talk about unschooling with schooling people? We managed to not share that we were homeschooling by saying we lived by such and such school. I
didn’t want to talk about homeschooling with them. I didn’t want to defend
what we are doing or try to explain it.

I wanted to watch the fire making chef and have fun with the kids. I like when summer comes cause no well meaning stranger is asking me why my kids aren’t in school during the day……

***

If we all just “got it” by mulling it over, we wouldn’t need lists or books
or movies.

Different things work for different people.

The movies Sandra lists are “unschooly” movies—like _Ferris Bueller’s Day
Off_ where lots happens OUTside school. It’s not an assignment unless you view
it as such. It could be be seen as a great way to spend a week—-watching
movies in your pj’s!

John Holt’s writings (especially in order) are eye-opening. He was writing
all this when I was in high school. *My* high school teachers certainly never
read him!

***

At what point do you help put learning ideas into their heads or does that
even matter? I’m very new at homeschooling and very very new at unschooling

It was tough enough to explain homeschooling to family and friends, I can
t wait to figure out how to explain unschooling. I may just keep it quite.

***

I think there’s a whole world between watch TV/ play
video games and “put learning ideas into their heads”
as you put it. I think that unschooling means that you
lead full, rich, interesting lives and learning
happens. So if you want your kids to watch less TV,
think of what fun things you could do together.
What would you do if you had guests visiting from out
of town? Would you go to museums, picnics, movies?
What do you do on vacations? Try not to think in terms
of learning. Think instead in terms of what you and
the kids would enjoy doing.

***

I would suggest substituting the word “fun” for “learning”. Your kids ARE
learning everyday, all the time. They are problem-solving, figuring out social
ammenities, making plans, figuring out how to carry those out. They are
learning about right and wrong, thinking about what God/Goddess might looks like
(if they are inclined that way).

A few lessons that you DON’T want them to
learn is that learning is boring, somebody else is in control of it and that it
only happens at certain times, doing certain things.

So have fun. Suggest cool things to do. Go for a hike, make baklava, read
African legends, watch lots of tv in your pajamas while eating ice cream. Talk
about things you/they notice…like the bird you saw looked like a wren but with
different coloring, that saying “baklava” sounds like you are coughing, etc..

Think of the things you/they notice as little dots of illumination into the
world. Keep having fun, keep laughing and eventually those little dots start to
make connections to each other. It doesn’t happen so much in a few months but
in the course of years as your children grow and start to see the world at
different levels of understanding.
***

I was just where you are about three weeks ago, so I’m probably not the best
person to ask about how to unschool. We’re still deschooling, and I’m thinking
unschooling won’t be much different in our home.

I was just this morning
telling a newbie school-at-home mom heading for burnout what we do, so I’ll post
what I told her, because it shows how we’re starting to let go. Maybe it’ll
help, maybe not.

We do a lot of day-to-day things, like errands and such.
We’re down to one car that dh uses to get to work right now, so we don’t go to
museums or parks (it’s too cold to walk anywhere here!) or much other
“interesting” stuff. It’s ok for us, because there’s plenty of time for that.
I stick to the practical due to necessity.

But the kids have learned about
reduce/reuse/recycle when it comes to Christmas presents this year! They’ve
amazed me with what they’ve come up with for gifts. They come up with the idea
and carry it through to the end all on their own, without any money
at all. But here’s what I had to say to the other mom about our deschooling
experience so far.

We’re deschooling right now and loving it! It’s so much less taxing on
everyone than when we started out in Sept. as gung-ho homeschoolers. I got
burnt out within a month and wondered what I was doing wrong. The kids rebelled
even though I gave them choices.

Then I just sat back and let the kids lead,
and there’s so much of a difference in their behavior and attitude and
creativity that I am astounded.

For example – They played CSI last week (must
be my CSI/Law & Order habit is rubbing off on them,) and they interviewed me
last week CSI-style and collected evidence (including my hair) and viewed it
under a microscope and found a murder weapon and figured out my motive. It was
just too cool! They were typing away on the play laptop entering notes and
looking up pretend info on the case. They took my fingerprints, though I only
let them have one because I didn’t want inky fingers all day.

They have never
done anything like this play before, and I wouldn’t have considered it
learning before now, either. It took me a lot of courage to start unschooling,
and the worst part is explaining it to others (which I avoid-ignorance is
bliss.) But if you find you’re fighting or burnt out, it’s worth a try. The
kids still learn, but it’s on their terms and their timing and their way. Trust
is the key.

***

don’t keep “records”…how about keep memories instead?:)
I think one of the best things we’ve done, is take lots of photos,
write journal entries etc…about our LIVES.

I was amazed this week, as we read some old journals, about all the
cute things the kids had done that I’d forgotten.

Write down the funny things they say, write down the “aha” moments,
the connections between family members, the tough days…write it
all down, even briefly and you’ll be amazed at the lovely stories
you collect.

The kids love looking through our old photo albums. Sometimes we get
inspired all over again! They were looking at the butterfly release
they’d done and asked if we could raise more butterflies. I
mentioned incubating eggs again and Jared said “It was such a PAIN
though!” :)

So keeping track of your bubbly, interesting life is well worth the
time, and will usually suffice if any official needs some kind
of “proof” (which I doubt you’ll ever have to deal with).

***

Don’t just tolerate it – EMBRACE it!

Quit waiting for it to END, start participating, supporting,
encouraging, facilitating, expanding their tv/video lives – NOW.

Get so involved and busy and enchanted with what they ARE doing that
you stop wishing they’d be doing something else.

THAT is unschooling.

I’ve been thinking that I never liked the term “child-led learning” -
because it seems to make people expect their kids to eventually pull
math books off the shelves.

I don’t like hearing unschooling equated
with unstructured – because it assumes that school/lessons/
assignments/tests/grades are the only kind of structure that counts,
while the wonderful varied structures of our real lives don’t.

And
now I also have come to dislike the term “relaxed,” when applied to
unschoolers because, well, first of all, MY family’s lifestyle is not
very relaxed – we’re high-energy, active and sometimes over-busy
people who have to make a conscious effort to take time to relax.
But, second, putting an emphasis on “relax” seems to encourage people
to be less pro-active, less hands-on, and less involved with their kids.

Yes, I’ve MANY times suggested that parents need to “relax.” But I
meant to stop worrying, to develop a more relaxed MENTAL attitude
about what the kids are learning. If people thought I meant “relax
and be less involved with the kids” then I take it back.

Get in touch, get connected – do it by developing an interest in what
your kids ARE interested in already – not by “offering” stuff to
them, not by trying to entice them to be interested in something
else. START WHERE THEY ARE RIGHT NOW! They don’t need to “change” in order to be ready to start unschooling.

***

But I am not interested in video games/tv. Should I fake it? Doesn’t
this work both ways. I am not trying to lead them away from their
interests. I am trying to expand their world. I don’t force them, I
just offer, but they wont even consider these options. I know there are
other things out there they would enjoy if they just tried. I KNOW it.
They are just timid.

It is wonderful that your family is so active. That is my whole point.
Ours is not. How can I relax? If I was any more relaxed I would be
dead.

***

> But I am not interested in video games/tv. Should I fake it?

Develop an interest. If that means fake it a bit then, yes, I think
you should.

> Doesn’t this work both ways.

You’re the parent.

> I am not trying to lead them away from their
> interests.

Yes you are. Your focus is on expanding their experiences by doing
“other” things.

> I am trying to expand their world.

Right. But you’re doing it by trying to entice them to do OTHER
things. I’m saying do it by starting with what they are into right
now. Start with that and you’ll find that their interests will
naturally expand.

> I don’t force them, I just offer, but they wont even consider
> these options. I know there are
> other things out there they would enjoy if they just tried. I KNOW
> it. They are just timid.

I’m sure you’re right. So what? Being right doesn’t change the
reality that they don’t want to do these other things you’re offering.

>
> It is wonderful that your family is so active. That is my whole
> point.
> Ours is not. How can I relax? If I was any more relaxed I would be
> dead.

Don’t relax – get INTO what they’re into. Support it. Expand on IT!

***

First – you’re exaggerating – they do NOT do the same thing 24 hours
a day, 7 days a week. It’ll help if you’re accurate.

Second, are you talking about me, personally? What does that matter?
The answer would be different at different times of my life.

But, for my KIDS – the answer is that there have been times that they
watched tv for hours and hours, day after day. There have been times
when they were online talking to friends for hours and hours and
hours, day after day. And there have been times they’ve played
videogames – most notably they’ve play SIMS, hour after hour after
hour, day after day.

When my youngest was REALLY into watching Nick at Night tv shows – I
stayed up and watched with her and when The Cosby Show was one of
them, I bought us tickets to go SEE Bill Cosby live at our county
fair. I found copies of the old Bill Cosby comedy albums that I’d
listened to as a kid. And I got a copy of his book, Fatherhood, which
I read but I don’t think any of the kids did. When it turned out the
kids LIKED the old Bill Cosby stand-up comic albums, I told them
about other comedians I’d liked as a kid and we listened to those. We
started watching some comedians on tv.

Sometimes the steps to something new and different aren’t big ones -
sometimes they’re not steps at all, but just a slight turning around
and looking in a bit of a different direction.

We were in a seriously heavy tv-watching mode and got started
watching West Wing. That has SLOOOOOOOWLY led to an interest in
government – California had a special election last month and one of
my daughters got more interested in that than she’d ever been in
political stuff, before. The other day I noticed an article about our
governor having appointed a new chief of staff — I read it out loud
to my daughter because I knew that SHE knew the important role of a
chief of staff – because of West Wing AND because our Republican
governor had appointed a radically left-wing liberal FEMALE and
openly lesbian chief of staff and I thought that was interesting.

My point is that I didn’t try to get them to do something ELSE
besides watch tv – I looked at what they were doing and enjoyed it
with them, supported it, and added to it and let new interests unfold
naturally.

***

No, it doesn’t work both ways. It is not their job to support your interests.
You are an adult, you can do that yourself. It is your job to support their
interests. I’m sorry you would have to fake being interested in coming into
your children’s world. My little boy likes cars. I don’t care about cars, but
I love watching HIM enjoy them, it is fun to nurture his interests. The fun
isn’t in the cars, it is in spending time with HIM.

***

If you’re concerned about your kids not having enough going on in
their lives, and the kids don’t seem interested in adding more to
their lives, then the answer you’re getting is to get more involved
in what they are ALREADY interested in, and then you’ll be able to
see how to expand from there.

> I don’t want them to SUPPORT my interests.

You asked if it goes both ways – the answer is no, since THEY aren’t
concerned about you, right?

> I just want them to be as
> open minded to new stuff as I am being with them.

I know – it is natural to want that. But you can’t “make them” be
interested in other things just because you want them to be.

> To see and do new things, and if they aren’t interested, fine.

Can you bribe them a bit? I mean – If there is something you’re
really sure they’d enjoy if they’d just try it, can you offer them
some incentive?

***

We just live in one big world. We don’t separate it in any way.

I do things with them. They do things with me. We do things together.

Big world.

***

There aren’t “adult worlds” and “children worlds” in unschooling
families, I don’t think – but each “person” sort of has his/her own
world, I suppose.

My husband’s world includes of a lot of international soccer -
entering his world means watching some soccer games with him, going
to an occasional live soccer game, listening with interest when he
talks about things happening in the international soccer world.

My 18 yo’s world consists of a lot of musical theater and a lot of
literature. Being part of her world means watching and listening to a
lot of shows with her, listening with interest as she talks and talks
and talks about the subject, helping her get to auditions and
lessons. It also means I sometimes read books that I haven’t read,
because she needs/wants someone to talk to about them. I just read
“Lolita” because she’s been talking about it so much, recently. Now
we’re both reading another book by Nabakov.

When my kids were littler, being part of their world might have meant
playing with them or reading books to them or listening to their
music and dancing around the house with them or watching tv shows
that they loved or going to movies they wanted to see or building
with legos together or painting with watercolors or folding origami
objects or going on a hike or on and on. A parent unwilling or
uninterested in being much of a part of their child’s world is not a
good candidate for unschooling, I don’t think.

A child being part of an adult’s world can mean that when I’m cooking
dinner I don’t shoo the kids away, but make them welcome to help or
hang out. It can mean that when I’m crocheting and my daughter wants
to learn, I stop and teach her. It can mean that I share my love for
cello music by putting on a cd in the car.

So – it isn’t “either/or” – but a sharing of our lives.
***

“Get so involved and busy and enchanted with what they ARE doing that
you stop wishing they’d be doing something else.

THAT is unschooling.”

YES.
That too.
I didn’t say anything about the tv/video part, only the outings….but
embracing ANY and EVERY interest they have is a huge part of
unschooling.

That includes tv.
***

Watch the videos and programs with them. Discuss the programs. Make some
popcorn or brownies or whatever to eat during the programs. Set out some fun
toys for them to mess around with while they watch. Also lots of comfy
blankets, pillows etc… Don’t plan trips unless you first check to see if
they want to go. I wouldn’t want to go to a movie premier party with people I
barely know either. With rare exception, I would almost always rather wait for
the dvd to come out.

I would be checking into a memebership to blockbuster or netflix or something
and would be ordering movies, lots of them, all kinds, some of my favorites that
I liked as a kid, old classics, new releases. Embrace their interest, maybe see
about a digital video camera. Maybe they would like to make a movie
themselves????? Sometimes after my kids have seen the movie, they enjoy
hearing the book, sometimes not. Some movies/tv series have games to go alongwith them. There is nothing to wait for, life is what is happening right now.

***

***But I am not interested in video games/tv. Should I fake it? ***

Can you sit down with them and fold laundry or crochet or something while
they watch? Then you’re there, interacting with them, hearing about what
they think the good bits are but you have something to do too.

***I know there are other things out there they would enjoy if they just
tried. I KNOW it.
They are just timid.***

They’re young. There’s lots of time for them to discover the world. If
this is what they really like right now it’s ok.
It’s really very cool that you have a house they like to be in. Some
kids can’t wait to get out.
Keep offering things you think they would enjoy but don’t attach yourself
to their response. Let it be ok to accept or decline.

***It is wonderful that your family is so active. That is my whole
point.
Ours is not. How can I relax?***

Some people are naturally more adventurous than others. Are there other
people in your family who are content to stay home? Maybe your kids have
a genetic component of homebodieness. <g>

But what your kids are doing today is not “who” they are. They are
complex people who will grow and change. Some interests last forever but
people seldom have only one interest their whole lives long. You’re kids
will try new things when they’re ready.

***If I was any more relaxed I would be
dead.***

If we don’t hear from you in awhile we’ll send someone over to check your
pulse. <g>

***

I have to admit, I LOVE video games where the point is to crash the
car. :) We have one where the car actually bursts into flames then
burns up if you run it into buildings or other vehicles enough times.
I find it very satisfying. lol.

We actually haven’t played any video games in a while. The kids seem
to go in spells. A solid week of video games from dawn to dusk, then
a week of legos, then a week of paper mache and paint. Hammers,
nails, hot glue… *things*.

My son will build something big enough to live in out of cardboard
while my daughter is sewing curtains, modifying her clothes, or
rehairing My Little Ponies for example. There are odd smaller things
thrown in, and we always make park days, but there is usually
something where the primary focus is for days on end. We have a lot
of overlap where we enter and exit each others’ projects, and do a lot
of things together… and do spend time in the same room doing
different things.

Have you tried blasting music and jumping up and down together?
That’s a fun family activity. Leads to lots of giggles and silliness
together. lol. You can’t help but be in a good mood after that! (In
fact, it’s gotten to the point here that if I’m getting a little
grumpy, one of the kids will put on a “jumping around” song knowing it
will work some magic and make our day go better.)

***

One time, years ago, a friend’s son LOVED Nintendo games. He played
them for hours and hours every day. He was 7, 8, 9 years old. He
TALKED about them when he wasn’t playing them. It was so boring to ME
that I’d almost want to cry from boredom when he’d get started, but
his mom made the effort to really listen, to learn, to think about
what he was saying, so that she could ask intelligent questions and
make reasonable responses. One day she suggested he might want to
video tape himself playing a game. (Just something a little different
to do.) So he did that – and then he wanted me to WATCH the video
he’d made of himself playing a Nintendo game. YIKES! So i watched a
bit, because I like this kid and wanted to be supportive. But his mom
watched a LOT of it.

These days that kid makes movies, creates games, and also does all
KINDS of other things.

Was his mom “faking it” when she showed interest in his Nintendo game
playing? Maybe a bit – but mostly she kind of talked herself into
finding a way to appreciate it BECAUSE it was what her son was
interested in.

***

“I buy the games, I tell him about new games, I signed him on to
unschooling-gamers. I just don’t want to play it.”

And that’s ok. We aren’t all going to like the exact games our
children love…but if you’re supporting the interest by asking them
about it, buying the things they love, showing you care about the
things they love, that’s GOOD!

I think maybe the time expectations are hard. I’ve had to re-
evaluate my own feelings again, since the conference.
I had a bubbly, interesting, outgoing teen up until we moved here.
He’s still interesting, but doesn’t seem as bubbly anymore…that’s
because he’s spending every single waking moment (aside from eating
or pooping) online with his friends.

This is a new thing for him again….and it’s not because video
gaming or computer use has been limited for him in years and years.
It’s because he’s very into his friends now, and most all of them
are miles away. The online gaming is something he loves, and it’s a
way for him to connect with friends he loves.

I trust this is exactly what he needs right now.
He has other offers, none of them have been as enticing as being
online with his friends! So the rest of us go and do stuff WE want
to do. It’s all good.

The time since the conference isn’t very long.
I think that’s a good start for deschooling really…I had to count
all over again when I started unschooling, even though we’d been
homeschooling for many years. Once I stopped pushing and being
negative about their choices, the unschooling began to unfold in
beautiful ways…but it took a while.
It was over a year of very concentrated tv viewing, before they
started to trust me. A few months isn’t very long.

Keep trusting him. I know it’s hard, but he is fine. He’s happy
enough with his choices right now….I think he’ll grow more
confident, as he learns that you’re only offering things for fun,
not for some ulterior motive. Keep doing the things you love, keep
offering, keep going places with the younger one that he
loves…keep trusting the process.
***

<<I just don’t want to play it>.

Then don’t. I don’t play video games with my kids. I wouldn’t play it with my
dh or with friends either. They simply don’t interest me at all. When the kids
want me to watch something or to tell me about something from the game, I watch
or listen. I root for them during a battle and I sympathize when the cheat
books seems my child’s only option <grin>.

We do have other things we do together, but not everything. Our interests are
kind of like ven grams, circles somewhat overlapping each other, but not
completely.

However, that said, I think the issue is really more about relationship than
about a specific interest. My kids and I have a really strong connection to
each other. We love, talk, get irritated, get over, etc. all with great
abandon. So sharing a particular interest doesn’t seem like a big deal.
But….if I felt my relationship with any of my children was strained, if I felt
disconnected from them, I would be willing to do ANYTHING necessary to make that
connection….even playing “Lego’s Star Wars”.

***

Posted in Deschooling | Tagged burnt out, Deschooling, patience, relax, trust, TV, video games

Thoughts and struggles about unschooling

I’m pretty new to this list, and to unschooling, having just begun
this endeavor with my son in his 8th grade year. I have been
lurking here, following discussions, trying to gain pearls of wisdom
to help me open my mind to this very different way of thinking.
Aaron (ds) led us to unschooling (he was unwilling and unable to put
up with school any longer, and our research of options led us here–
it was the ONLY option that made sense to Aaron)… it was not
something that I would have chosen for my children without having
been “backed into the corner” that we found ourselves in with Aaron,
because I work, I love to work and financially speaking, I need to
work. Nevertheless, here I find myself, with an older daughter in
11th grade in public school, flourishing and happy and completely
overloaded with work and pressure unbefitting to any human being….
yet she handles it and by “normal” standards is very successful…
and Aaron who looks at school as a complete waste of time (he has
always been wise beyond his years), and who is compelled towards
this very different approach, and completely and totally relieved
that he never has to go back to that awful, absurd place called
school (unless he chooses to).
And then there’s me, who runs a very busy home-based business, who
works long hours (I am the chief bread-winner of the family…my
husband is a Middle School science teacher), and who feels very
conflicted, stressed out, worried that I really can’t give Aaron the
attention that he deserves and needs as he embarks on this new
journey. I find myself many times a day wanting to get him off the
computer, to get him to do something “constructive”… my mind
understands what unschooling is all about, but my automatic impulses
are quite strong and intact, and I have yet to find my trust in this
process. I keep wanting Aaron to fit MY picture of what he should
be doing (I do try to control these impulses outwardly, I’m just
describing the conflict that is going on inside of me).
I guess I’m looking for some moral support from other parents,
particularly from parents with teens… particularly from parents
who have perhaps not been unschooling from “day one” and perhaps
have experienced some of this conflict. Unlike many who post here,
I am not completely opposed to traditional schooling for some kids,
as flawed as it is. It definitely works for my daughter, and as I
mentioned in another post, I couldn’t pay her to leave school. My
husband teaches very poor, inner city kids, whose parents do not
have the luxury of unschooling their children, who are barely
getting by, and whose kids desperately need a caring role model.
School, as dysfunctional as it is, may be the only place where they
experience a spark of hope. Some families for whom I have the
utmost respect and admiration send their children to public school,
and their kids are curious, full of life and brilliant, each in
their own way. I just don’t think there are any absolutes in this
world, and there is much to be learned in every situation.
So, I’m led down this new road by my wise, independent-thinking,
wonderful son, and I’m having trouble letting go of the reigns and
of my old way of thinking. Something in me doesn’t WANT to let go
(yes, my kids will tell you I’m a control freak)… yet I know that
I need to.
One more thing I’d like to ask of anyone who wants to respond…
what do your teenage unschoolers do during their days? I would very
much like to gather a mental picture “gallery” of days in the lives
of various unschooled teens, to help me to understand, accept, open
myself to possibilities, to find out where this journey can lead.
Sorry for the long post, and thanks for any thoughts.

***

My 13 yod is on the computer for hours at a time, playing Neopets, writing,
working on web pages. She also riders her bike and scooter, takes her
brother to the park, does numerous, various and sundry craft projects, reads
for hours, runs errands with me, or stays home with her brother, watches
some tv, but not a whole lot. She is mostly self-directed, though we’ll do
projects together and I’m often needed as the resource person. However, at
this age you can easily get a lot of work done at home while your teen does
his own thing.

***

Sounds like you have a lot going on. I’m probably not the best one
here to answer you, but figured I would since we have a bit in
common. I also have a 16yo daughter, 11th grade, AP program public
school, who is thriving. My step-daughter, 14, 9th grade, public
school is choosing to fail. We will be pulling her out after grades
are posted (need the proof for her mother)

I am new to the unschooling which I have been doing for about two
months with my 8yo son with great results. He is highly gifted and
just didn’t fit the school mold. Unschooling is perfect for him.
(And I guess we use the same thoughts for the others, they just
choose to be in school as they like the school.) As for the 14yo, I
am interested, also, to hear the answers. We would be ‘forcing’ her
out of public school as she would prefer to fail and just ‘hang-out’
for the social aspects.

***

***I have been
lurking here, following discussions, trying to gain pearls of wisdom
to help me open my mind to this very different way of thinking.***

You have probably already found or been offered these links but I’ll post
them again because there’s so much information at both places.
www.sandradodd.com/unschooling
http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/

*** and who feels very
conflicted, stressed out, worried that I really can’t give Aaron the
attention that he deserves and needs as he embarks on this new
journey. ***

Your stress levels will decrease as you grow more confident about
unschooling. But as to time with Aaron, weren’t you committed to time with
him before you took him out of school? Wasn’t his unhappiness at school a
source of stress for you? How did you cope then?
These aren’t questions you need to answer on the list but just consider the
possibilities in your life for these or different changes:
Can you work at least part of your shift while he’s asleep in the AM or PM?
Can you work when his father is home to hang out with him?
Can you work in chunks, taking time through out the day to do something with
him, go for a walk, play video games, etc. ?
Can you change your hours or get help in order to spend more time with him?
Can you changes jobs?
Can you quit your job or cut back hours?
Can your husband quit or cut back or change?
Can your son have a friend over for at least part of your work day?
Can he go to the house of a friend for part of a work day a couple times a
week?
Is there an Aunt or Uncle or trusted friend who’d take him fun places one or
two days a week?

***I find myself many times a day wanting to get him off the
computer, to get him to do something “constructive”… my mind
understands what unschooling is all about, but my automatic impulses
are quite strong and intact, and I have yet to find my trust in this
process. I keep wanting Aaron to fit MY picture of what he should
be doing (I do try to control these impulses outwardly, I’m just
describing the conflict that is going on inside of me).***

He needs time to heal from the injuries of school. You’ve probably read
about deschooling. Some people have talked about one month of deschooling
for every year the child was in school but I’ve never thought that was
enough. Maybe I’m slow. <G> I think it’s possible or even likely some or
even lots of kids take much longer to heal. (that was messy but I hope you
know what I mean.)

Resist letting your concerns spill out onto him.

Be with him as much as he wants you to be. Take an interest
in whatever he’s doing. Sit down with him while he’s on the computer and
try to see it from his perspective. He’s getting something out of it he
needs right now. Let that comfort you.

***I guess I’m looking for some moral support from other parents,
particularly from parents with teens… particularly from parents
who have perhaps not been unschooling from “day one” and perhaps
have experienced some of this conflict.***

I’m the mom of a teen boy. Dylan is fourteen.

What Aaron is doing today is not all he’ll ever do. Relax your whole body
and tell yourself that. Let is settle. He might very well always like
computers. They’re common household and work place appliances and all of us
on this list have at least some interest in them. <g> He might not always
have the deep interest he has today but if he does, that might lead him to a
job or hobby he loves and isn’t part of your hope for him that he will find
what he loves to do?

People have changing interests their whole lives long. A parent may not be
able to
see where her kid’s interest might end or if it doesn’t end where it might
take him but that doesn’t lessen the value of his experience today.

We don’t always have to understand what our kids are getting from their
interests. But in loving our kids and in respecting their intelligence we
can get comfortable knowing they are pursuing something that’s important to
them. Your son’s reasons for loving the computer right now aren’t less
important than your reasons for loving your job, or sewing or carpentry – or
whatever your passion
might be.

This is not all he’ll ever be. Haven’t some of his interests changed since
he was three? Since he was seven? Since he was ten?
Do you fear he will be thirty five and still at home with you on the
computer? <g> It sounds kind of silly, but a lot of people have those
feelings. The “what about when he’s twenty” feelings.

Dylan nursed until he was four. Lots of kids nurse longer but no one who
knew us ever knew a child to nurse as long as four years. I would hear
those irrational fear based questions from friends and family: “What are you
going to do when he’s still nursing at eighteen?” I would say, “Get a
bigger rocking chair.”

They could only see two possibilities. Either I stop him from nursing or he
would never stop. Either I do this or he will never do that.

And so always remember that there are more possibilities than *Either you
stop your son from playing on the computer or he will never do anything
else. *

There is the possibility that he will play until he’s finished. There is
the possibility that his enjoyment will lead to a joyful hobby or career.
There is the possibility that through his play he will find other interests.
There is the possibility, if you embrace his interest too, your relationship
will grow and strengthen. There is the possibility he’ll lose interest and
move on to something else in a year. The possibilities are endless.

***Unlike many who post here,
I am not completely opposed to traditional schooling for some kids,
as flawed as it is. ***

Even in a fairly happy school scenario kids can but injured in ways that
don’t always show on the surface. This isn’t a school bashing list but the
simple fact most parents willingly comply with the law and separate from
their very little children to let them be with strangers for three or six
hours a day is evidence that school alters our judgment and undermines our
confidence in ways we aren’t aware of many years later as adults.

***One more thing I’d like to ask of anyone who wants to respond…
what do your teenage unschoolers do during their days? ***

The only people who respond to you on this list will be the ones who want
to. <g>

My son is making his way through several screenwriting books he’s purchased
recently or received as gifts. He’s on book two now. The first one he read
was “Story” by Robert McKee. It sort of irritated him. <g>
The one he’s reading now is “Elements of Style for Screenwriters” by Paul
Argentini. He’s interested in
screenwriting and directing. He watches movies and pays attention to the
directing style, camera angles, etc. He watches a couple of movies a day,
lately. He
researches directors and movies online. He’s interested in camera angles
and film techniques. He watches documentaries about film making and film
makers. He reads books about these things he’s interested in. He’s
reading Stephen King’s “Danse Macabre.”
He listens to jazz. He pays attention to politics and
international news. He subscribes to and reads a weekly political magazine.
He likes comedy and watches a couple of political
comedy shows. He’s reading Howard Zinn’s “A People’s History of the United
States.”
He’s reading “The Year of the Angry Rabbit” by Russell Braddon – an odd
political humor/horror story.
He splits kindling for his grandmother three or four times a
week. He draws cartoons. He’s working on an idea for a line of dark humor
greeting cards. He’s away on a road trip with his aunt, into Alberta and
British Columbia right now. He likes to stay up late and sometimes all
night. He likes to walk at night so we go for a walk after dark every night
with few exceptions. He’s annoyed by the curfew laws that say he can’t be
out alone after ten oclock. He likes to hike so we go hiking at least once
a week. He hangs out at the bookstore one day a week and visits with the
owners and with the local “Character” to talk about politics and social
issues. He plays cribbage with his dad. He kicks my ass at chess. (would
it kill him to let me win one game?? <BEG>)

***

“But as to time with Aaron, weren’t you committed to time with
him before you took him out of school? Wasn’t his unhappiness at
school a source of stress for you? How did you cope then?”

It’s not a matter of coping… it’s a matter of meeting his needs.
His needs are different now that he is not in school. We’re still
finding our way together, so that both of us have our needs met, but
it’s OK, it’s a good search— I’m not asking for advice on this.

> These aren’t questions you need to answer on the list but just
consider the possibilities in your life for these or different
changes:”

Yes, your exact list of questions don’t really apply to our
situation, but I get what you’re saying–to think outside the usual
box. Believe me, what we are doing is way outside the box we were
in! I think we have already made many changes, both outwardly and
inwardly. And I think we’re on the right track.

Thanks Deb, for such a long and thoughtful response. I enjoyed
hearing about your son, and I am glad to be reminded that my son
will probably not end up having his computer surgically attached to
his body. Even now he does occasionally retreat from the computer to
jump on the trampoline, play his bass, go to chess club and computer
animation club… get tutored by his favorite teacher in the
universe, etc….. He just left for a sleepover with three great
friends, SO WHY DO I FRET SO MUCH?? LOL.

***

***The body wants to keep doing what it’s already doing… ***

I thought you didn’t believe in absolutes! <g>
Think about this. If a body wants to keep doing what it’s doing, why is
that? Mightn’t there be a need? What would make it so?

***and sometimes computer time can become excessive and pointless just
because I’m
too lazy to get up and do something else… ***

Or maybe you just needed a little down time. Time to let your mind unwind.
When people need down time and they take a nap or go to bed early or go get
a massage, or take a long bath, we consider those to be healthy choices made
by people who are listening to their own bodies.

But society has a negative view of TV and video games and computers in that
unless one is doing something that qualifies as “work” then one is wasting
time.

*** But people do do destructive things, don’t they? ***

What kind of people do destructive things? This is another one of those
questions that isn’t necessary for you to answer on the list but to ponder
yourself. Is your son at risk of being self destructive? Are you thinking
rationally or are you letting fear take hold of you? Is living with fear
constructive or destructive?

***Do I just let my son continue whatever direction he’s going, even if
it’s leading him down a path the I see as not too great for him?***

First, your son is playing computer games, he’s not organizing hookers and
gambling rings or stealing cars. Try to keep your perspective.
Games. He is not doing anything destructive and instead of trying to
change his direction you could go there with him. Then you might see it is
not the road to hell, it’s a young man’s interest. An interest he shares
with many other people who are just fine. Join him! Your fears will
subside.

But what else is available to him? Does he have choices about what to do
with his time. Can he go see friends? Can he go to the book stores or
museums or art galleries or gaming shops? Can he watch TV or movies? Can
he have friends over? Can he spend time with you? Can he go places and
meet people? Could he join a club or group if he wanted – rock climbing or
ski club or karate?

If he has many choices and he’s choosing computer games then he’s doing what
he wants to do right now. If the computer is his only or best choice then
*you* are not doing enough to make his world big and interesting. That is
not a fault with your child and not a problem with the computer. If the
computer is his only choice and you take it away from him what do you leave
him with? Resentment, boredom, loneliness. If the computer is his best
choice then he’d be a fool not to use it. What are you doing to make his
world big and interesting?

***This is where I go crazy, not knowing what to do as a parent.***

This doesn’t have to be agonizing. Think about good and right ways to
treat people and apply that to your kid. If a dear friend was healthy and
happy but spent many hours making quilts would you be wondering if she was
headed down the path of destruction? <g>

***

If you are “forcing” your stop-daughter to leave school, I expect you may have a
tough row to hoe, as they say. I “forced” my older daughter out of the eight
grade halfway through the year, but she was not failing. I found out what REALLY
went on in the school, and it was not consistent with my value system, and then
my daughter was involved in a retaliation incident against a boy accused of some
major sexual harrassment against her best friend. (long story, dont need to go
into it here, but suffice it to say I dont know how all that happened did so
under the teachers nose) I thought I was doing what was best for her, and giving
back control of her life to her, but she refused to get involved in
homeschooling and became very depressed. There were some good things that came
out of it, and I did like some of the positive changes I saw in her over the 7
months she was out of that environment, but her resistance to it was a major
obstacle. I talked with other parents who had the same t
hing going on, meaning they decided to pull their teenagers out for various
reasons against the teenagers wishes, and the ones that stuck it out said it
took a very long time before the teenagers came around to unschooling or
homeschooling voluntarily. One parent told me that the local high school was so
bad that staying home and doing nothing was an improvement over sending her kids
there, even though they rebelled by refusing to do anything but watch TV and
complain about how she ruined their lives. She just let them lay around for a
year and then they realized that they owned their own lives (her words) and they
got up and got motivated. So with your daughter, dont expect it to go smoothly
if this is against her wishes. I am lucky that my current situation is
different-my youngest daughter chooses to unschool so I am fortunate in that
respect. I dont have any great advice for you, but you might try and involve
your step-daughter as much as possible in deciding how she is going t
o unschool or homeschool.

***

Thanks. That’s pretty much what I’ve been saying, too. It’s her life and she
needs to choose her path. Her dad, my spouse, has told her that if she refuses
to bring her grades up, he will put her in homeschool. I see this as a problem
for just the reasons you stated and she could make unschooling unpleasent for my
8yo who is enjoying it.

I have tried to reason with her to get her to do something, but she just
chooses to do nothing. That’s why she’s failing. It will be interesting to
look back in a few years and see how it all pans out. I have warned her that
her father isn’t kidding and where we live, unless we take the kids to meet
other kids, they are in total isolation. The end of her social life as he
won’t let her online either.

***

She is a smart girl. She enjoys singing so I have tried hard to encourage
her, which worked as she joined the drama class and loves it. I bought her a
piano which she loves to play. I was going to sign her up for piano lessons
that she real wants, but as I work 4-12 and she’s in school 7-3, I can’t get her
there. (weekends, she’s at her mom’s and she refuses. Her mother has always
refused to let her take classes. Grandma even offer to pay for classes and her
older sister, my daughter, offered to drive her her the lessons.

Her Dad and Mom said no if she continued to fail her classes. Piano lessons
are a privilege not a right. One earns privileges. Hummm. Needless to say,
my spouse and I think differently.

I plan on getting her the harp she asked for, for Christmas. I finally found
a student harp that I can afford. She can’t say why, she chooses to not do the
assignments. She just always has then at the last hour, does her work, and
passes each year by the skin of her teeth! Last year she went from a .82 to a
3.14 in four weeks. So it’s not that it’s too hard She is twice as smart as
her class on the standardized testing yet average IQ they say.

Lately, I’ve sat down with her and told her, all her father can do is make the
next four years miserable for all of us. She can comply and he will give her
freedom, or she can refuse and she’ll be free when she’s of age.

I told her I see it differently. My oldest, is taking classes I never had in
college. This is their time to learn to fly and still have us as their safety
net. I am here to help her discover and become what she would like to be
whatever that is. I can’t do it for her. I can only help.

Needless to say, very frustrating.

***

It is so hard to trust that the kids will be
OK when they are not being forced to do math sheets and to follow a
curriculum.

-=-=-=

Why?

I mean—really ask yourself WHY?

Why would kids who are forced to do math sheets and follow a curriculum
be more OK than kids who are not? Why?

-=-=-=-=-

That they will, on their own time, eventually find a
passion for learning and run with it.

-=-=-=-

Well, first of all, they are BORN with that passion for learning.
Schools (and often schools-at-home) suck it our of them.

And many of us DO find that passion again—but usually in our
mid-thirties. Haven’t you noticed the ages of folks in teh self-help
sections of bookstores and libraries? <bwg>

-=-=-=-=-

I have recently met a mother
who took her son out of school at age 10. It took him 9 months to
deschool(play, do nothing, etc..)

-=-=-=-=-

Essentially he was healing. It only looks like playing and doing
nothing! <g>

My son took 18 months. It’s not a pleasant time!

-=-=-=-=-

Now he is taking University courses at age 15!

-=-=-=-

Yeah–but it doesn’t always look academic! Be prepared for anything!!!

-=-=-=-=-

So we just have to wait and trust in our kids!
Hard as it is. When I get doubtful, either because of my own
thoughts or other peoples comments, I think of all the other
successful unschoolers out there.

-=-=-=-=-

I can’t tell you how mind-boggling the teens at the Live and Learn
Unschooling Conference were/are!!!

It’s so much easier to trust in the process when there’s some tangible
proof out there! We had a SLEW of them (teens and young adults) at the
conference! They are SOOO COOL!!!

***

But we are
> so programed by the ‘system’ that public school is the right way to
> do things. I know it works for a lot of kids out there but it also
> fails a lot of kids.

Unschooling fails kids? Hmmm. I think that neglectful parenting
fails kids. A mindful parent who is a partner with their child in
their goals will not fail a kid. I hope you are taking time to
deschool yourself as well as your children.

> It is so hard to trust that the kids will be
> OK when they are not being forced to do math sheets and to follow a
> curriculum. That they will, on their own time, eventually find a
> passion for learning and run with it.

That learning may not be what you have grown up thinking that learning
is. It may look a lot like play or “doing nothing.”

> I have recently met a mother
> who took her son out of school at age 10. It took him 9 months to
> deschool(play, do nothing, etc..) Now he is taking University
> courses at age 15!

Is this where he wants to be? Or is this where he thinks he is
supposed to be? :-D Is this where he has been pushed to be?

>So we just have to wait and trust in our kids!
> Hard as it is. When I get doubtful, either because of my own
> thoughts or other peoples comments, I think of all the other
> successful unschoolers out there.
>

I’ve yet to meet an “Unschool drop out” IOW I have yet to meet a
young adult who was unschooled who is a total “failure.” I’ve had the
fortune of meeting some really cool young adults who were unschooled
and they are living rich beautiful fulfilled lives. They may not look
like “successes” through the eyes of a traditionally schooled person,
but they love their lives and are so happy pursuing their passions.
And I would say half of them never went to college.

***

—What sort of things do these unschooled young adults do to make a
living and be independant?—-

-=-=-=-=-

Cameron started working at a deli at 14.5. Ben used to sell food to
restaurants, so we knew the owners. We were also regular customers.
They needed help. Cameron applied. They would take him back in a
heartbeat. He was one of their best workers. A clean-freak! <G> They
paid him under the table until he was legally old enough to work there.

Next he worked for a caterer—again, someone we knew. Again, their
best worker.

He left there as a full time employee and worked only two days/week
because he got a job delivering a local paper. Again—best worker! <g>

He volunteered at the local independent movie theatre for a year. Then
one of the managers left for five months to go to Australia. Cam was
hired to temporarily replace him until he recently came back.

He started his own pet-sitting service. He still does this and has
over a dozen very regular clients. He stays overnight in their homes
and cares for the animals and plants, etc. This is by far his biggest
source of $$$.

For years he has gone to “Open Mike Night” at two bars in town. I had
to go with him to get him in until they knew him and knew he was
serious. At 17, he was a regular. At 18, one of the clubs hired him as
the house band’s drummer (Fatback and the Groove Band). He’s a
professional musician now! <G> He plays blues, jazz, and old pop.

The band he formed (Half Moon Blessing—check out their MySpace) has
had two paying gigs and are looking for more. They need a longer set.
<g>

He plays the drums 4-6 hours each day.

He was recently asked to work for a guy (family friend of the
girlfriend) who needs a driver for his business. We’re not quite sure
what he’ll be doing, but it’s $10-11/hour.

He also has been helping a friend with some serious
remodeling—scraping popcorn ceilings, landscaping, cleaning, painting
inside & out. THis friend is also a *TALKATIVE* sociology professor at
the university. Essentially, he’s paying Cam $10/hour to lecture him
about sociology. Cam LOVES it! <G>

Most of his friends are in college or have an apartment. I’ve told him
we would be happy to help him move out (pay first month, furnish with
what we have in storage, etc.), but he’d rather keep saving for a newer
car (that can fit his drums!) and have $$ to spend on the girlfriend.
He helped pay for NBTSCamp and the upcoming Drumming Collective (in NYC
in November) with the $$ he’s made and saved. His car is paid for, but
he covers his insurance and gas and repairs, etc. At 18, I think that’s
enough.

He’s pretty generous with his $$, but he *really* likes to save it! <g>

He could *be* more independent, but we’ve suggested that he keep
working and keep saving and keep living with us. If he puts the time
and effort into his drumming these next four years that his friends are
in college, he’ll be *more* prepared than they will! <G> He makes
enough $$ that he *could* live on his own, but that’s not the meager
existence I want for him. I’d rather his life be rich and abundant. I
can still give that to him. I don’t want him to think of himself as a
“starving artist.” He can be *just* as good a musician with a full
stomach and a warm, dry home! <G>

I have NO doubts he will make it alone. He could do it now. But I like
having him around!

***

I have a friend who has three grown unschooled daughters. One is a
published author of children’s books, one is a freelance photographer
who does wedding photographs and also movie stills, and the third is
in the entertainment business currently working for Disney in an
international program. They are all (what I consider) young (under
30). They are all pursuing their passions and unhindered by
“shoulds.” Another friend has two young adult unschooled children.
One is currently in college (can’t remember what she is studying) and
the other just finished a 6 year stint in the Navy. Now he works
doing something similar to what he did in the Navy and going out with
his girlfriend as much as possible. :)

My oldest child has recently been thinking about “what she wants to do
when she grows up” and while she hasn’t pinpointed it exactly yet, she
knows it will have something to do with Japan. She is thinking along
the lines of being an instructor of English in Japan or working in the
corporate world as an English/Japanese translator or perhaps something
to do with diplomacy. It’s exciting watching her go through this
thought process!

***

And then there’s me, who runs a very busy home-based business, who
works long hours (I am the chief bread-winner of the family…my
husband is a Middle School science teacher), and who feels very
conflicted, stressed out, worried that I really can’t give Aaron the
attention that he deserves and needs as he embarks on this new
journey.

-=-=-=-

He *does* need a lot of attention—but less than he might if he
weren’t choosing this path. How much attention do you give him per day
*now* while he’s IN school?

-=-=-=-=-=-

I find myself many times a day wanting to get him off the
computer, to get him to do something “constructive”…

-=-=-=-

Uh oh. Please consider his compter time as VERY constructive! *MY*
computer time certainly is. Is yours???

-=-=-=-=-

my mind
understands what unschooling is all about, but my automatic impulses
are quite strong and intact, and I have yet to find my trust in this
process. I keep wanting Aaron to fit MY picture of what he should
be doing (I do try to control these impulses outwardly, I’m just
describing the conflict that is going on inside of me).

-=-=-=-

I understand—and I’ve been there too.

-=-=-==-

I guess I’m looking for some moral support from other parents,
particularly from parents with teens… particularly from parents
who have perhaps not been unschooling from “day one” and perhaps
have experienced some of this conflict.

-=-=-=-=-

Cameron came out of a private college prep school at the end of sixth
grade with eight years there (pre-school and kindergarten). He spent 18
months of doing “nothing” while deschooling. Now there are not enough
hours in the day for him to fit in all he wants to do! He’s 18 and
loves his life!

-=-=-=-=-

My husband teaches very poor, inner city kids, whose parents do not
have the luxury of unschooling their children, who are barely
getting by, and whose kids desperately need a caring role model.
School, as dysfunctional as it is, may be the only place where they
experience a spark of hope.

-=-=-=

Yep—but that isn’t our audience. Children in abusive, neglectful,
dysfunctional families may indeed find solace and inspiration in
school. We’re not them. Our homes are overflowing with love and fun and
trust and respect and—well, all those things that they’re NOT. I’m
assuming you’re not describing your home either.

-=-=-=-=-=-

So, I’m led down this new road by my wise, independent-thinking,
wonderful son, and I’m having trouble letting go of the reigns and
of my old way of thinking. Something in me doesn’t WANT to let go
(yes, my kids will tell you I’m a control freak)… yet I know that
I need to.

-=-=-=-=-

Yeah—Go control something else. They’re are plenty of things out
there just begging to be controlled. I seek to control a conference and
my garden! Try NOT to aim that control at your kids! <bwg>

-=-=-=-=-

One more thing I’d like to ask of anyone who wants to respond…
what do your teenage unschoolers do during their days? I would very
much like to gather a mental picture “gallery” of days in the lives
of various unschooled teens, to help me to understand, accept, open
myself to possibilities, to find out where this journey can lead.

-=-=-=-=-

Today, Cameron helped me clean the garage out and set a few things
aside for Freecycle. He talked on the phone with his girlfriend, and I
helped her with a paper she’s working on in college. He jumped on the
trampoline with his brother for a while—a lot of that time is spent
just sitting and talking too! <g> He played on the computer a bit—I
assume e-mailing friends—especially new ones from NBTSCamp. He
emptied the dishwasher and started a load of laundry. He’s been playing
his drums since 1:00-ish. It’s almost 5:00 now. He usually puts in 4-6
hours/day on the drums when he can. He’ll be in soon to help me wih
supper. We meant to start shagging (a SC dance for those who are
wondering! <G>) today, but haven’t gotten around to it. (He learned
West Coast Swing at camp and has asked to learn how to shag and
waltz—we were going tot do that today, but haven’t yet—maybe
later). He’ll eat with us and probably get back on the computer this
evening. He’s usually the first in bed every night unless he’s playing
the drums for work—then he comes in after midnight.

Yesterday was more “eventful” since he just got back in town after a
week in Vermont. He was catching up on phone calls and doing a lot of
running around and making appointments.

He’s been gone most of these last six weeks. He house-sits a lot, so
he’s often gone with that. He went to NBTSCamp in Oregon, came home and
left again for two weeks for the Albuquerque conference and our trip to
the Grand Canyon, came home and drove to Vermont for that NBTSCamp.
I’ve missed him! <g>

Specific questions?

***

“How much attention do you give him per day *now* while he’s IN
school?”

Not sure what you mean by in school… we are home all day long
together, but I am working furiously and he is doing his thing…I
check in on him quite a lot, and he comes to tell me about things
that amuse, excite or interest him.

“Please consider his compter time as VERY constructive! *MY*
computer time certainly is. Is yours???”

Not always. INERTIA is a dangerous thing, in my opinion. The body
wants to keep doing what it’s already doing… and sometimes
computer time can become excessive and pointless just because I’m
too lazy to get up and do something else… But yes, mostly it’s
constructive. But people do do destructive things, don’t they? Do
I just let my son continue whatever direction he’s going, even if
it’s leading him down a path the I see as not too great for him?
This is where I go crazy, not knowing what to do as a parent.

“Cameron came out of a private college prep school at the end of
sixth
> grade with eight years there (pre-school and kindergarten). He
spent 18
> months of doing “nothing” while deschooling. Now there are not
enough
> hours in the day for him to fit in all he wants to do! He’s 18 and
> loves his life!”

That’s encouraging…

“Children in abusive, neglectful,
> dysfunctional families may indeed find solace and inspiration in
> school. We’re not them. Our homes are overflowing with love and
fun and
> trust and respect and—well, all those things that they’re NOT.
I’m
> assuming you’re not describing your home either.”

No, I’m not, but not all parents are cut out for this. Even if they
are overflowing with love and fun and trust and respect, perhaps
they also want to pursue a career, or need to work…. Our society
is what it is and it takes a combination of nerve, bravery,
commitment and a certain nature to break the mold. I do not
consider myself cut out for this, by nature, but I am rising to the
occasion because it’s right for Aaron.

“Yeah—Go control something else. They’re are plenty of things out
> there just begging to be controlled. I seek to control a
conference and
> my garden! Try NOT to aim that control at your kids!”

I’m trying….’

***

Yes, he is completely self-entertaining, if you want to put it that
way— very creative and has a lot of interests. He does like to
share with me though, but is very respectful of my work time. I
spend a lot of time with him… we are very close. And yes, I
provide transportation for him, of course… I work at home and plan
my days around whatever he needs to do or wherever he needs to be.
As I always have, for both kids, in school or out. That’s not an
issue.

> “He’s DEschooling though—he needs LOTS of inertia to heal.
>

> Happy people don’t do destructive things.”

Now those are two bits of good advice! Thank you.

> “Check in with him often. Ask whether he needs a break. Give him a
> massage. Take him some freshly baked cookies. Get a trampoline!”

We have a trampoline, I do make cookies, I try to keep things
happy… so I guess we’re doing OK!

I am excellent at nagging though, so if anyone ever needs lessons,
I’m a pro!…. Fortunately none of us take me too seriously when I
get into that mode.

“You may be right. THis might not work.”

I never said this might not work. It will of course work. I have no
intention of sending Aaron back to school—he would whither and die
there. I was just describing some of the conflicts and difficulties
I have, as I find my way through this.

> “Do you have the Teenage Liberation Handbook? Have you and he read
it?
> How about Rue Kreams’ Parenting a Free Child? Sandra Dodd’s
website?
> Joyce Fetterroll’s?”

Two out of four. Aaron doesn’t want to read right now, so I read
some chapters to him.

***

As you know, our situations are very similiar since this is my daughter’s first
year out of school. She watched her friends go off to High School and missed all
the excitement of entering ninth grade. Now she is dealing with the fact that we
are moving, which she does not want to do. Nevertheless, she has no interest in
going back to school. Since I joined this list, I have found it within me to
back off thinking I need to “do” anything to get her to “do anything” that meets
anyone’s criteria of whats “constructive” other than her own. I am on another
list that is for homeschoolers and the ideas there are quite different than the
ones here.
How does she spend her days? Sleeping. She stays up all night, and I mean all
night, reading or manipulating photos in photoshop. She has read three books in
the last two days. We are taking a Digital Photography class at the local
community college (meets one night a week) and now she wants to learn to SCUBA
dive. I am so excited about that!! I can’t wait!!
One thing that helps me see things differently is to keep my records in what
someone called “educationese” or something to that effect. I downloaded some
free software called HomeschoolTracker and I use it. I keep a reading list,
enter field trips, make “assignments” out of stuff she does, for example if she
says she read for three hours I enter it into the “Free Reading” assignments
section. The software keeps track of all the hours spent doing things and when
you look at the overview you see just how much “nothing” your kid is actually
doing. And for some reason it satisfies the naysayers in my life. I showed it to
my mother and now she is off my back about the whole thing. Funny how when you
call something an “assignment” it takes on a whole new connotation. As if doing
things you are told to do is somehow learning but doing things voluntarily is
not. What a joke. And a sick one at that.

***

Posted in Unschooling | Tagged struggles, Unschooling

Unschooling and Idealism

I’ve recently been accused of being an idealist in a recent
discusson about unschooling my daughters. No one ever seemed to
doubt my ability to homeschool – I guess because I was doing ‘school
at home’ but now my critics say that I’m being too idealistic and my
children will suffer because of it.

Are unschoolers really more idealistic than others when it comes to
creating a different/better way in dealing with our children and
their learning/growing?

I never thought that being idealistic was a bad thing, but I’m
having some doubts. It (radical unschool) is much harder than
reward/punishment system I used to use. Unschooling is much more
enjoyable than ‘school at home’.

Do you ever doubt yourself? How do you deal with critics who claim
you are too much of an idealist and you are damaging your children
because they won’t be able to live in the real world?

***

Idealism is a positive thing, is it not? I think so.

What I personally do is limit what I share with others. I guess I
pick and choose what I say, and to whom I say it, very carefully. I
think we get excited and want to share it (unschooling and the
freedom found there) with everyone, because how could they not want
to be free? In our enthusiasm and zest for a peaceful life we tend
to forget that most of the people in our everyday lives don’t think
outside the box.

In order to keep focused and centered I keep my ideas to myself and
share little bits here and there. It seems to be more effective
that way anyhow. Most people don’t seem to be too open to
alternative ways of thinking especially when it comes to education.

Don’t get me wrong. I do have discussions here and there about
simple living, mindful parenting and unschooling. I just watch my
words very carefully and make sure I am up to the challenge before I
say “too much”.

If I find myself getting frustrated or discouraged or I am
questioning myself in any way related to unschooling and the
decisions I have made for myself and my family I come here. I read
the blogs of like minded people. I signed up for Scott Noelle’s
Daily Groove email list. I read it daily. I submerge myself in
reassuring information. I stay centered. I look at my children and
see the self-confident, independent, beautifully free young people
that they are.

Look, listen, observe, interact, live, know, be…

***

Unfortunately, Cara, I don’t have much advise for you but I do have the same
problem. As a matter of fact, that could be my “theme” this year! I almost
expect to have a new TV show on this season called “Leslie, Your Kids Will
Never Be Able to Live in the Real World!” <g>

I did almost look for a hidden camera when I was accused of overprotecting
my kids by using unscented laundry detergent. (I’m not kidding!)

I do know just as many people who are settled and successful and able to
deal with the real world that were “pampered” kids as I do people that had a
harsher childhood. How many people do you know that had all the right stuff
but just never got the right breaks? Or people that had everything and then
lost it? There are some people that are happy with very little and some that
are never happy no matter what. Some people survive disasters perfectly fine,
some cannot get over the trauma. Some people get all the breaks and never
really have to work hard at anything.

You cannot predict the future or success or even happiness. Maybe a good
portion of successful and/or happy adulthood is luck and timing. I do I feel
it
is important to give my kids as much opportunity for self-esteem and
self-knowledge as possible, and the best way I know to accomplish this is
unschooling.

I also find the “real world” plays a big part of our daily lives, good and
bad, regardless of how idealistic I am. :)

***

It makes me CRAZY when people talk about putting their kids in situations to get
them used to the “real world”. There is no 1 “real world”, people who live in
different situations, based on socioeconomic level as an example, would hardly
ever cross paths. An adult’s “real world” is based on their job, their
interests, their kids, etc. and if they choose they could stay in that little
bubble. To me unschooling enables children to build up an intact self-esteem,
and try out interests feeling safe in the knowledge that they can back out at
any time. As they grow more confident and CHOOSE to try out other outside
activities they grow and expand interests and their “real world”.

***

I think it’s the parents who send their kids to school who are the
idealists. Just think: sending your babies off to a building where they
will be taught by strangers. They’ll be taught everything they’ll ever
need to know—-all in that building. And some other strangers in
government get to decide what those things are—without ever meeting
the children! And they all get to do the same things! At the same time!
By following this tradition, all graduates should be rich, handsome,
and famous! In the “real” world.

That’s true idealism! And damaging.

I prefer to think of myself as a realist. Exposing children to as many
different things, people, situations, locations, and ideas ensures that
they will KEEP living in the real world.

No, I don’t doubt myself. It just makes too much sense!

***
I think it’s the parents who send their kids to school who are the
idealists. Just think: sending your babies off to a building where
they
will be taught by strangers. They’ll be taught everything they’ll
ever
need to know—-all in that building. And some other strangers in
government get to decide what those things are—without ever meeting
the children! And they all get to do the same things! At the same
time!
By following this tradition, all graduates should be rich, handsome,
and famous! In the “real” world.

That’s true idealism! And damaging.

I prefer to think of myself as a realist. Exposing children to as
many
different things, people, situations, locations, and ideas ensures
that
they will KEEP living in the real world.

No, I don’t doubt myself. It just makes too much sense!

***

Posted in Unschooling | Tagged idealism, Unschooling

Unschooling Teenagers

I have a twelve year old daughter and a fifteen year old son who have
been homeschooled for about four years. We have always used
traditional curriculum which I have hand-picked for each subject area.
It feels like we are pretty much doing public school at home.
Unschooling has always interested me and it seems to make a lot of
sense especially when I think about what I remember after being in
public school for twelve years.

With them being older I wonder if
it’s too late to start. Also,it frightens me that they will not be
motivated to learn on their own after having so much structure with
schooling. I don’t have any funds to purchase a lot of resources to
have just laying around the house for them to just pick up and use.
We do;however, have some educational games and access to the local
library. If I knew that they could find their niche and “run” with it
on their own I wouldn’t feel so uncomfortable, but what if they just
lay around the house all day wanting to watch T.V. or playing video
games? Also, what if they want to go on to college? How do I give
them credits on their high school transcripts? This whole idea of
unschoooling really frightens me, but it also makes so much sense as I
know most of what I’m teaching them now they will either have no use
for or they won’t retain most of it. I also want them and myself to
have more fun in their school day.

Anyone who has any suggestions on how to unschool older kids who are
used to a lot of stucture or has been in my situation and can also
alleviate my fears, I welcome your comments. I look forward to
hearing from anyone soon.

***

> I have a twelve year old daughter and a fifteen year old son (snip) With them
being older I wonder if
> it’s too late to start.

It’s never too late. I started unschooling myself about 3 years ago
and I’m old enough to be your children’s mother. LOL!

>Also,it frightens me that they will not be
> motivated to learn on their own after having so much structure with
> schooling.

Are they motivated to *learn* what you give them or are they going
through the motions and regurjitation what you have given them to
“learn”? If you are “school at homing” then you are doing little
better for their education than if they were in school (except *you*
get to control what curriculum that they use). If you haven’t bought
curriculum this year, set that money aside for all the things that
they want to pursue. Go on a vacation (literally or figuratively,
whichever your budget can afford) and then don’t come back (mentally
of course unless you can afford to go on a lifelong vacation :) )
Start saying yes more and DESCHOOL! There are tons of articles at
http://www.sandradodd.com/unschooling and look through the various
blogs listed in people’s siglines. Get the Teenage Liberation
Handbook and you and your children read it.

Also, please realize that unschooling isn’t about them learning what
you feel is important. It’s about them learning what they feel is
important and what they need to get to where they are going. Look
through the archives of this list at the yahoogroups and you will see
that quite a few people have concerns about “what happens after the
‘high school years’”

It’s never too late!

***

What’s your goal? To have a diploma at age 18? If so, keep schooling
them at home.

If your goal is to give your children happy childhoods (now
teenagehoods <g>) with a love of learning and a deep, abiding trust in
you, then you’ve come to the right place. Unchooling can do that. It
can also allow you to give your children dipomas—BUT you have to be
willing to let go of those schoolish goals.

It’s never too late, but you’re pushing it with your son. Maybe
consider delaying the “diploma” with him so that he can heal. There’s
no “end” of learning, but he’s going to need to DEschool a while before
you can consider unschooling him. Average time is one month for each
year spent in school or school-at-home. Maybe more for sensitive
types—and maybe more if you don’t quit nagging or start trusting them.

DEschooling *often* looks like watching tv all day. In my house, it
looked like sleeping, watching TV, talking on the phone, IMing friends,
and sleeping some more. I took Cameron (now 18) out of school at the
end of sixth grade when he was 13. His deschooling took 18
months—more than it *should* have, but *I* had a hard time not
nagging and pushing. I think we could have moved along more quickly had
*I* been more deschooled! <g>

They WON’T be motivated to learn, more than likely. There’s always the
exception, of course, but they desperately need to heal. And THAT looks
like …well….not much! It looks like tv and sleeping and lounging.
But that IS healing. AND there’s learning going on there even if *you*
don’t want to believe it! It’s not easy to watch, I can tell you. But
if you TRUST them, they’ll slowly start to trust *you* and get better.
Then they’ll find new passions or resurrect old ones, and then they’re
OFF!

How much in the way of funds do you have? You’ve BEEN buying curricula.
I KNOW *that’s* expensive! Instead of a curriculum, buy an iPod or join
Netflix or a used PS2 with games. Plan travel—you can stay in
friends’ homes all across the country.

Colleges are starting to pursue unschoolers because of their
interesting lives and passions. You don’t necessarily make a typical
college transcript—although that’s *possible*. Better to submit a
posrtfolio with lots of letters and references. Make your child’s
education S T A N D O U T !!! from all the thousands that the
admissions director has to slog through. Don’t even TRY to make his
transcript look “average”! Make it DIFFERENT! and EXCITING! and
LOOK-AT-ABLE!

The best thing I can tell you from a BTDT perspective is to free your
children and enjoy them. Make popcorn. Watch movies. GO places
together. Live life! THEN write down what learning you’ve seen
happening *after* the fact. You’ll be surprised! They’re learning
machines—*after* they get all that toxicity out of their systems.

***

I wanted to respond to your concern about having little money for
resources. You might want to brainstorm about the free resources you
have available to you where you live or already have (a few you
mentioned). There are tons of free ways for your kids to learn. If
your child has an interest in a certain profession they can find a
mentor or an appreciticeship. I am sure there are many people around
that know things or that will share their resources and are happy that
someone is interested in what they are interested in. Your kids may
want to be dropped off somewhere to just explore or you could travel
together and visit friends in other cities. Talk to them and see what
they think they would want to do if they had the freedom to do
anything. Then you can come up with ways to make that happen.

Have you looked into connecting with other unschoolers in your area
for support? They would be helpful in ideas for free resources as well
as giving your kids an idea of what fun they could be having. You also
may take comfort in seeing the results of unschooling first-hand.

Since your kids are older they may want to earn money themselves to
buy or do the things they are interested in. It could be making and
selling things or working for someone part-time.

You might think about taking the money you have been spending on
curriculum and giving them an allowance to buy their own resources or
discuss as a group how it should be spent on a monthly basis.

Yes, you will probably initially encounter a period of “doing nothing”
healing from schoolish learning. I know as a kid I had things that I
was interested in outside of school and maybe your kids have some too.
Give them to freedom to explore them and have a great time–all of
you! School it out!

***

Thanks so much to all of you who replied to my questons concerning
unschooling. Naturally I have more questions and fears. Let me
explain our situation a bit further.
We live in an extremely remote area on four acres in a trailer; trying
to build a house for the last three years. Having currently run out
of money to complete it we have curtailed this project. The town of
Winchester is about ten miles from our home. My son is involved in
Civil Air Patrol, but my daughter has no social outlets here.
Finances and the fact that we own eight (yes, eight) dogs interferes
with us going too far away from home. We are quite isolated. So,
although I am convinced that following a strict curriculum at home is
pretty much a waste of time as they will forget most of what I make
them learn and it will not be pertinent to what they eventually do
with their live I still wonder if unschooling will work in our situation?
I have three older boys, two of which were educated through the public
schools. My oldest had trouble in high school only because he
wouldn’t do his homework and was totally unmotivated. He did however
manage to get himself into Pratt Institute in New York with a $10,000
scholarship and a GPA of 2.6. I believe it was his art portfolio that
accomplished this. He graduated this past May, one of only 160 with a
Bachelor’s in Architecture. My 21 year old is on the west coast
learning computer graphics and 3d amimation to some day make computer
games. Please don’t think I am telling you this to brag. I just made
the connection that both of them are doing things that they did not
learn in public school. I know they both love art. The second didn’t
find out how talented he was until his senior year and then paid for
his own private lessons, put together his own portfolio and got into a
school that only accepted 50 new applicants a year. Obviously, his
career also stemmed from almost an addiction to playing video games.
By the way he first wanted to do the progamming part of gaming, but
switched to the animation because in the fall of his senior year he
found out he hated programming from the class he was taking in school!
They both took almost no basic courses in college; the ones that are
just a continuation of high school, but were able to start right in
with their majors. I won’t go into my third son as this is getting
too long, but I now see that my older kids did what they wanted and it
virtually had nothing to do with publc school. Another reinforcement
for unschooling.
My fears with my other two come from our isolation, will they
eventually be motivated to get absorbed in something they are really
interested in, if they choose to go to college how will they get in
without the credits they need, is our situation so unique will
unschooling just not work for us, and lastly fear of ruining their
chance for success which I feel very responsible for? I hope you have
some positive answers and ideas for me. Is there anyone out there who
is in our situation or has been and has been successful? A friend of
mine who I spoke to about this I know thinks I’m completely crazy.
I am taking a religious excemption so I won’t ever have to worry about
the authorities wanting test results and my intention to homeschool
including outling my curriculum.
Last week we spent the week doing no school and my kids and I pretty
much just layed around, read, watched T.V., etc. I was extremely
bored except for the day we went to town for a Dr.’s appointment. I
asked my son if he wanted to go back to doing school and he said no.
He has previously expressed wanting to go back to public school, but
I am against it. I guess I’m afraid he might get so bored that he
will want to again.
Well, I will stop. I know this is way too long, but I hope someone
will take the time to read it and possibly respond. I have been
reading the Teenage Liberation Handbook which I find reinforces the
way I feel about public schools.

***

Well, you are not alone. I live in a remote area as well and we are
living in the very unfinished house that my husband built. We have
also run out of money and are only able to do projects with materials
we already have or that don’t cost anything. My husband is going to
get started installing Internet Satellite Dishes and hopefully we will
be able to get some more projects done (like insulation and drywall,
siding, walls and doors, shower, etc.). Some would not find this place
livable, but we manage.

The town of
> Winchester is about ten miles from our home.

We live about an hour east of Shreveport, LA. (Which Winchester do you
live near?) There is not much to speak of here at first glance, but we
are always looking for learning opportunities. I do have to drive
quite a ways for certain things, but that is just the way it is out
here. We are not only far from a major city, but we are far from most
people who have alternative thinking like we do (especially any who
have organized themselves into a group or business). I remember
visiting my relatives in Massachusetts this summer and I loved that
you could be remote, but that there were often many interesting,
educated, eccentric people and businesses around these remote places.
What I wouldn’t give to have these kind of resources around me. I
don’t, so I have to look a my neighbors and area in a different light
or just search out further. There are people here who have different
talents and specialties to offer and occasionally we run across
another “freak in the woods”. It helps that my husband’s parents who
live 500 ft. away are fairly interesting people–lots of collected
junk and books to tinker with and enjoy.

My son is involved in
> Civil Air Patrol, but my daughter has no social outlets here.

I find the internet (and the inter-library loan system of books) very
important for me in my remoteness. It brings me close to friends who
are far way as well as has been a ways of finding new friends in my
area and beyond.

It has been a way for me to find out about many local opportunities
for fun and learning for my son (Though we haven’t done much as of
yet. Once my husband gets a truck for his work and I have a car I can
use every day, there will be more.)

> Finances and the fact that we own eight (yes, eight) dogs interferes
> with us going too far away from home. We are quite isolated.

You said you can’t travel much. Have you considered sending your kids
somewhere: to visit a brother or another relative or to a retreat of
some kind–maybe as counselors, so it won’t cost so much. You can also
just explore and visit places your area on day or day and a half
trips, perhaps?

It is always difficult for me and my almost 3 year old to get up and
go somewhere like Shreveport or other nearby towns. We have a special
diet, so I have to prepared meals for us on the road. I have thought
about making a goal for at least one fun trip to the city a week.
Money is very tight right now, so we are worried about how much the
gas will cost for too much driving. I am optimistic though that we or
he will find the opportunities and resources that are needed when the
time comes, even though to outward seeming I live in an area devoid of
culture and interest.

I personally would try to expose them to lots of different things and
see where it takes you. Whatever you can find. Stay busy with things
(when they are ready and want to) and even if they reject them, at
least they will know more about what they DON’T like. While they are
unwinding from their school-at-home experience, you can wait for them
to reach out to you for suggestions on things to do or you could offer
some fun ideas, like lets rent or borrow a bunch of movies or go to an
amusement park or whatever. (if renting movies is costly, most
libraries have movies and if there is nothing there you like, they can
usually get a requested item through interlibrary loan. the louisiana
interlibrary loan catalog is online and i can browse it anytime. i
share this because most people don’t think to use this resource,
though homeschoolers i’m sure are more savvy than your average library
patron. <g>)

> My fears with my other two come from our isolation, will they
> eventually be motivated to get absorbed in something they are really
> interested in, if they choose to go to college how will they get in
> without the credits they need, is our situation so unique will
> unschooling just not work for us, and lastly fear of ruining their
> chance for success which I feel very responsible for? I hope you have
> some positive answers and ideas for me. Is there anyone out there who
> is in our situation or has been and has been successful?

I know there are many homeschoolers and unschoolers who go onto
college. The “Unschooling Handbook” shows an example of a transcript
written for a child that was unschooled. The book also mentioned that
colleges may look favorably on homeschooler/unschoolers because they
may know better what they want (unlike so many college students who
have no direction) and they are motivated to learn. But if your kids
are like your other kids, they will find a way to get what they want,
once something sparks their interest. I have two art degrees and I
think I could have taught myself most of what I learned by working my
way up in a good graphic design studio and on my own or even explored
other areas of interest without the constraints of a degree.

Also, try not to feel so much pressure about them figuring things out
by the time they are 18, when most kids go to college. I took time off
in the middle of college and traveled and did some service. There may
be opportunities, paid, unpaid, and free for your kids to travel/learn
when they are old enough. I wish I had done more exploring internally
and physically before I went to college.

Would your kids be interest in volunteering/doing an intership (paid
or unpaid) somewhere that interests them? It might be a way for them
to make more social contacts. (I forget how old they are.)

> Last week we spent the week doing no school and my kids and I pretty
> much just layed around, read, watched T.V., etc. I was extremely
> bored except for the day we went to town for a Dr.’s appointment.

What are your interests? Maybe your kids need to see you unschool
yourself as well and pursue some of your own passions. Just an idea.

I hope you can find other unschoolers in your area/state for support.

I have no idea if any of this is helpful, but I thought I would share.
It is difficult to come up with the exact answers when I don’t know
every detail of your situation and don’t know your kids. You will be
their best guide, partner and companion in exploring themselves and
their world.

I have hope for you and for us all. I sincerely believe that
unschooling or not should not depend on where you are (if it is
legal). Life is everywhere.

***

Thanks for writing. I feel bad for the circumstances you are living
in, but it’s nice to know that there is someone else out there that is
in almost the same situation. Sometimes it feels like there is no
light at the end of the tunnel. I don’t know if you believe in God
and I hope I don’t offend you, but I’ve decided to focus my energy on
Him and allow Him to take care of the rest.
Unfortunately, I live in Winchester, VA which is quite far from you.
If you have any other thoughts on unschooling, please let me know for
I need lots of ideas and reassurance. It makes a lot of sense to me,
but I feel like everyone else knows what they are doing and has more
resources, etc., etc. I quess I feel like if they really knew my
situation they’d tell me that what I am doing is wrong for us.
Once again, thanks a lot for writing and good luck with your
unschooling experience.

Posted in Unschooling | Tagged fears, teenagers, Unschooling

Newbie to unschooling

I’m mom to 3 great kids, Aidan 9,
Ashlyn 7, & Kian 13mos. We’ve homeschooled from the beginning, but
after 4 years of relaxed school-at-home, we’ve got issues. Somehow I
can take anything my kids are interested in and make it boring.
Mention a favorite game might have educational value, and they never
touch it again. Ask them to sit and do spelling or math, you know
the real important stuff ;), I get arguments and/or tears. This
isn’t what I envisioned when I decided to educate my children at
home.

So we just recently moved from a state with yearly testing to a
state that has very few restrictions, and I’m thinking we should try
unschooling. I discounted it in the past as a really nice theory,
but something that wouldn’t work for my family. I guess I didn’t
really believe that my kids would learn what they needed by
unschooling. After reading several personal stories and lurking on
this list, I now realize that my idea of what my kids should be
learning is a little skewed and my assumption that unschooling was
just about education was completely off the mark. We’re talking
total lifestyle change here! I don’t have to only stop controlling
their education, I need to stop trying to control them!

So my problem is how do you just suddenly let go and TRUST that
you’re doing the right thing and the kids will learn what they need?
What should I be doing with myself? Should I be right there with
them all day long while they’re playing? Should I encourage them to
watch a show with me or offer to read to them or play math games?
For instance, they’ve been cooped up in my daughter’s room since
yesterday playing barbies, only coming out occasionally to get a
snack or feed the pets. I can’t go in there because the baby likes
to eat all those great barbie accessories, but I feel so guilty just
hanging out, surfing the net. I’m really not sure they want me in
there anyway. What if they only want to play barbies and never show
an interest in the learning they’ll need to get into college some
day (provided they want to go to college)? Please help, I feel like
I’m on the verge of an anxiety attack! (I’m only half joking. ;-))

***

First thing is don’t do anything suddenly. Except maybe dropping the
textbook/workbook/’school day’ stuff. That can go away and it can
be ‘vacation time’. All the rest of the control stuff (food,
bedtime, etc) needs to go slowly for everyone’s sake or it’ll get
really confusing and frustrating. Instead of an “okay there are no
more rules” pronouncement, just say Yes a whole lot more – “Can we
stay up to watch one more show? Yes” “Can I have another freeze pop?
Yes” and so on. Take a breath or two and think before answering No
to anything (except maybe “No, don’t use the baby as a speed bump”
lol)

“What they need”? What *they* need or what the school system (which
is playing in your head) says they need? Those are usually different
things. The school system tapes say “They have to learn
multiplication at age 8 and reading by age 6 and…” Reality is that
those are tools to reach a goal not an end in themselves – which is
the way school is – you learn multiplication or reading because
someone else says so, not because you have a real life need for it
at the time. Do you go out and pound a dozen nails every day “just
in case” you need to do a bit of carpentry in 10 years? You’ve
probably got plenty of other stuff to do I’m sure – stuff that is
real and now and important to *you*.

What to do with yourself: definitely spend some time with the kids.
Be involved with them sometimes. Be nearby sometimes – maybe read or
whatever in the big comfy chair while they’re sprawled around the
living room watching Spongebob or snakes or Unwrapped or whatever.
Also spend time for yourself – get out the knitting or bonsai trees
or the bagpipes or whatever – something you’ve put aside maybe or
something you’ve wanted to explore for yourself.

Live as though every day were vacation.

> What if they only want to play barbies
hmm fashion design, interior design, graphics, cosmetology,
screenwriting (soap operas for sure), and so on are all potential
directions that a love of barbies could go (and there are probably
zillions more. Get them barbie magazines. Find barbie websites for
them. And so on. barbie collectibles bring big bucks on ebay
sometimes. Oh and don’t forget that sewing might be in there when
they want to expand the wardrobes and possibly carpentry (to make
miniature furnishings and such)…there’s a whole world all
connected to barbie (where is malibu and why is malibu barbie so tan
and won’t she get skin cancer and what is in sunscreen and ….) Be
prepared for lots of questions that you don’t know the answers to
(there’s no answer key to living life). Be willing to say I have no
idea but we can look it up.

> and never show
> an interest in the learning they’ll need to get into college some
> day (provided they want to go to college)?
And you’re assuming their life for them a decade or more in advance.
Ten years ago would you have known that you’d be living where you
are with a nice passel of kids? Do you know for sure what they’ll
ned to know 10 years from now? Could you have imagined surfing the
Internet when you were their age? Computer skills are critical
today – and I graduated high school before the IBM PC was invented
and when I graduated college, I got a “top of the line personal
computer” as a gift – it was a Commodore 64! My college degree is in
Information Systems. Guess what I learned? Punch cards and IBM
Assembly language and Pascal and COBOL. Virtually NONE of what I
took in *college* has any relation to my current career. DH waited a
full decade after high school to consider college and choose to
leave a 5 figure salary to pursue something he was passionate about
via a college degree (that’s where the resources he wanted were
lumped so that’s where he went). Now he’s a full time at home Dad,
by choice. He uses his degree on occasion. If you had asked him when
he graduated high school if he’d ever have a college degree he’d
have laughed at you. He got his high paying high tech job(s) without
so much as an ITT Tech certificate. The skills that got him those
jobs were those he learned *outside of school*.

If you spend all your time now worrying about 10 years from now,
pretty soon it will BE 10 years from now and you’ll have missed all
the now.

***

> All the rest of the control stuff (food,
> bedtime, etc) needs to go slowly for everyone’s sake or it’ll get
> really confusing and frustrating. Instead of an “okay there are no
> more rules” pronouncement, just say Yes a whole lot more

This is something that my hubby and I both need to work on. I’m
usually pretty relaxed about stuff, but sometimes I say “no” for no
good reason, because I don’t want to be bothered at that moment. :-(
Then the kids start to argue with me and their dad gets upset
because they don’t “respect” us and before you know it we’re all
upset.

> Be involved with them sometimes. Be nearby sometimes – maybe read
or
> whatever in the big comfy chair while they’re sprawled around the
> living room watching Spongebob or snakes or Unwrapped or whatever.

So, basically just be available right?

> Also spend time for yourself -

Does this mean I no longer have an excuse for the dirty dishes in
the sink?

> Be
> prepared for lots of questions that you don’t know the answers to
> (there’s no answer key to living life). Be willing to say I have
no
> idea but we can look it up.

See, this is part of the reason I’m looking for another way to do
things. The kids aren’t asking as many questions as they used to. I
know it’s my fault because I was always trying to turn every
question they had into some kind of a lesson. So I’ve backed off and
I’m hoping they’ll start asking again. How do I handle it when they
do ask? Just give a simple, strait-forward answer, then asking them
if they’d like to learn more?

***

It’s hard to be patient, believe me, especially when you’re new to
this. My dd will be 14 next month, this was her first year out of
school. She’s been deschooling and healing for over a year.

Do NOT ask if they’d like to learn more! Just answer their questions
and let it go! Less is more.

***

Put all those books on a shelf – some of them might be handy
references for answering questions you don’t know the answers to
(but I’m betting in about a year they’ll be all dusty and ready to
go up onto ebay). If any of them really makes you get nervous
repeatedly, get rid of it fast. I gave away a few things I had
accumulated when DS was a baby “just in case” (like 100EZ lessons -
hey I found it on sale brand new for 30% off!lol) to our homeschool
group’s lending library. I figure someone might want to look at it
before buying for themselves (and maybe they’ll look at it and
decide not to buy any reading lessons at all lol).
>
>
> This is something that my hubby and I both need to work on. I’m
> usually pretty relaxed about stuff, but sometimes I say “no” for
>no
> good reason, because I don’t want to be bothered at that moment.
> Then the kids start to argue with me and their dad gets upset
> because they don’t “respect” us and before you know it we’re all
> upset.
That’s an excellent start at it – recognizing that sometimes you say
no simply for your own convenience. If DS asks and I say No, it’s
usually because I just don’t want to do that. And that’s okay – I’ll
think about it, maybe ask a couple questions to define exactly what
it is he wants my participation to be, and decide if it is something
I am willing to do. Since No is considered and not constant
(sometimes I play, sometimes not, it depends on many factors,
including things like if he’s asking me to play something long like
Monopoly or Risk at 10 pm).
>

> So, basically just be available right?
Exactly – think about how you and DH lived before kids. You didn’t
hover over each other but you probably hung out together. I remember
curling up on the bed in the spare room to read while DH played
computer games on the computer in there.

> Does this mean I no longer have an excuse for the dirty dishes in
> the sink?
LOL – usually DH does the dishes at our house (he’s home, I’m at
work) but sometimes I’ll do them. I make sure we’ve got the dish
soap I like (the orange oil scented ones) and I’ll treat it *as* a
treat – my guys will usually head off to play somewhere and I get
some quiet and I get to look out the back window and think long slow
thoughts. Sometimes I’ll even use the time to pray if there’s
something I need to really spend time praying on. Sometimes just
seeing the residue on the dishes can remind me of things
like “that’s the leftovers of DH’s birthday cake – that was a nice
party – I’m so glad to have him…” or “boy that chili was spicy!”
or “I’m glad we had company over for pizza the other day”. Sort of
triggers to being thankful instead of seeing it as a chore.

> See, this is part of the reason I’m looking for another way to do
> things. The kids aren’t asking as many questions as they used to.
>I
> know it’s my fault because I was always trying to turn every
> question they had into some kind of a lesson. So I’ve backed off
>and
> I’m hoping they’ll start asking again. How do I handle it when
>they
> do ask? Just give a simple, strait-forward answer, then asking
>them
> if they’d like to learn more?
>
KISS lol “Keep it simple Stacey” If they want to know more, they’ll
ask more. If the same types of questions keep coming up (for
instance, my DS kept asking why it’s called… a window, a door, a
ceiling, a pillow, an armada, etc), find resources they can use – I
found a cool website that gives the etymology of hundreds of words
(you can search specifically or hit the first letter and scroll
through the list) and I bookmarked it on DS’ computer so he can
check stuff at will – he’s somewhat independent from me (as
independent as he chooses – he can look it up, he can ask me if I
know, he can ask me to look it up). If you keep getting questions
about spiders, get a good field guide to spiders or bookmark a
website (or both).

***

> So my problem is how do you just suddenly let go and TRUST that
> you’re doing the right thing and the kids will learn what they need?

Start saying yes more and no less. It’s something you have to
deschool out of yourself as much as deschooling your kids.

> What should I be doing with myself?

I don’t know. What are your passions? Seriously, your kids need to
see you involved in your passions as much as you need to see them
involved in their passions.

>Should I be right there with
> them all day long while they’re playing?

Sure. Or as they want. Let them get all the schooly stuff out of
their systems. Your baby will be older then and you will be more
relaxed. You can also play with them when the baby is napping or
after the baby has gone down for the evening (if you have such a
critter ;) )

>Should I encourage them to
> watch a show with me or offer to read to them or play math games?

If they like math games. We don’t have any math games in our house,
but we do have games that one needs at least some math to do
(Monopoly, Life, etc.) We don’t play them to learn math. We play
games because *games* are fun. If they aren’t fun then it is work.
I’m not discounting that a math game can’t be fun, just that they
aren’t necessary to unschool. Invite them into your world. If you
have a show that interests you invite them to watch with you. Want to
go somewhere that sounds fun, ask if they would like to join you.
Starting a new hobby or craft? Maybe they would be interested as
well. On the other hand, be involved in their world as well. Help
them create new barbie fashions from their outgrown or tattered
clothes (or scraps of cloth or learn to knit some). Help them make
dioramas for barbie adventures. Have them outfit Barbie and all her
friends for an outdoor adventure and take them outin the yard(sans all
the itty bitty pieces that fall off easily and get chewed up by lawn
mowers).

> I’m really not sure they want me in
> there anyway.

Might not right now if they associate you with schooling and being a
funsucker :-D That will change as they trust that you aren’t going to
turn every activity into a “learning experience” In that time you have
to trust that they will learn through playing and exploring. What
wonderful creativity they must have if they can play constantly with
their dolls and not be bored! Coming up for fresh air may happen in a
time near you.

>What if they only want to play barbies and never show
> an interest in the learning they’ll need to get into college some
> day (provided they want to go to college)?

Go rent the movie Big with Tom Hanks (It’s been playing on AMC and
Encore this month). Seriously, this is a great unschooling movie.
Here’s a “kid” who looks 30 and he knows toys best. He gets a job
designing and testing toys. My brother would have been great at a job
like that! No college education, no high school education for that
matter. Just a kid who “grew up” too fast. (There are adult
situations in this movie)

Please help, I feel like
> I’m on the verge of an anxiety attack! (I’m only half joking. ;-))
>

Breathe in *and* out. Repeat. It’s necessary. :) Baby steps and
remember, it doesn’t have to look like school to mean something in
life!

***

“So my problem is how do you just suddenly let go and TRUST that
you’re doing the right thing and the kids will learn what they need?”

By reading about natural learning, by talking with other unschoolers,
by meeting up with other unschoolers and by studying human development
and history, which shows exactly how humans learned just fine without
schooling.:)
Look deeply at your children and see them for who-they-are at this
very moment. See them as perfect and whole and unfolding in their own
time. You can poke and prod at the blossom, but you won’t make it
unfold any faster or better, you’ll only do damage. You’ve seen that
damage, now you have an opportunity to simply create a wonderful
environment for them to blossom in their own way and time. So create
that wonderful environment (I’m sure many of those parts are already
in place) and get out of their way!!:)

“What should I be doing with myself?”

Getting a life!!;)
Seriously, if your children are your entire focus, that’s not a great
example to them of living the life of your dreams. They are the dream,
but what did you dream about before children? After they’re raised?
Who are you really and what are YOUR passions? What part of you
decided you aren’t worthy of following your own dreams? (I’m only
guessing here, could be totally off the mark).

What things make you happy? What activities make you feel fulfilled
and joyous? DO those things and as you happily pursue those things,
you may find yourself suddenly surrounded by interested children. It’s
a much nicer way to share learning with them. Let them come and go as
they choose.

“Should I be right there with
them all day long while they’re playing?”

Yes and NO.
They don’t need you there constantly monitering them. Let their
imaginations and ideas flow in their own way. Be available, join in
when they need you, but give them time and space. Take them platters
of food, check in to see that they’re doing ok, make the environment
conducive to play by cleaning up after them if that helps.

Should I encourage them to
watch a show with me or offer to read to them or play math games?”

Only if it sounds like fun, just because it’s fun…not to teach them
anything. Here’s a REALLY great quote I came across as I was pulling
bits for one of my talks in Albuquerque next month:
“There is this cultural myth that ‘homeschoolers make cookies to teach
math’. I don’t know what other people do, but here in my house, as
unschoolers, we make cookies to make cookies, and if necessary we use
math to help us make more cookies. Doing activities in order to learn
specific schoolish stuff is backwards prioritizing. We learn or
practice skills in order to facilitate the fun activities!”

I believe that was from Robyn Coburn.
Your focus still needs to shift a bit. Away from how to get certain
knowledge into them and towards living a rich, full life. Interesting
lives naturally encompass a lot of learning and stimulate plenty of
reasons to write/compute/draw/research.

The focus is on a life lived well. What kind of things make for a good
life? What do you need to change in order to feel that all of your
lives are about living to the fullest? Does your family find some
fascination with Brazil or mountains or snakes or color? Bring those
elements into your life with abandon!! Each person will have their own
ideas about what good living encompasses, but there will also be
things that you seek as a family. It’s a give and take, ebb and flow
and it works best with adults that are creative, interesting and
mainly CURIOUS!!

If you aren’t those things…it’s ok. You can reclaim those character
traits.:) Just recognize that the focus is entirely different for
unschoolers. We aren’t playing games to help the kids learn math,
we’re playing games because it’s fun. We learn constantly, because
that’s what humans are born to do.

***

What are some other books you’d suggest?

-=-=-

Parenting a Free Child, An Unschooled Life by Rue Kream

-=-=-=

You are so right. I used to work as a dog trainer, but I had put
that on hold when I decided to homeschool. I also have a large
collection of books sitting on my shelf that I haven’t had the time
to read yet and tons of sewing projects just waiting to be started.
It’s not that I couldn’t do my sewing or reading, but I always felt
guilty, like I should be doing more important things with the kids.

-=-=-=-

Consider raising a guide dog puppy.

It’s hard to let go, but it’s something you can do as a family, and it
won’t interfere, but rather ADD, to your homeschooling experience. We
raised Ryan, a vizsla through SouthEastern Guide Dogs, last year—it
was GREAT!

-=-=-=-

Did I mention I really dislike cleaning and especially cleaning up
my kids’ rooms? Honestly, I’m afraid that if I always clean up after
them, then they won’t learn to clean up after themselves. For
instance, I lived with my father-in-law while my husband was
stationed in Korea. He very rarely cleaned up after himself. Every
morning he left toast crumbs and spilled coffee on the counter. He
vacuumed his room one time during the 18 months I lived there. His
mother always took care of him, then his wife & once she left, I
moved in to help him out. Now he’s living with his mom again, so he
still doesn’t have to clean. My husband is a little better than his
dad, but his cleaning is limited to only his things. My mother-in-
law thought it was easier to pick up after him than to get him to do
it himself. I don’t want my children, especially my son, to think
cleaning is somebody else’s job. I think I’m going to have a hard
time dealing with the chore issue.

-=-=-

Neither your husband nor his father was unschooled. Nor were they
mindfully parented. DROP you what you *think* will happen. Change your
attitude about chores. THAT will influence how your children view
housework. There are a slew of us out here that don’t force chores and
yet have children who joyfully help out and clean and keep the house
neat.

***

As to the cleaning up issue…
Children that grow up with the attitude of dependency on another
person to clean up for them, are usually those that aren’t allowed to
help in their own way. What I’ve discovered (as I released my chores
issues over the years) is that children WANT to help, they WANT to be
a part of day to day activities. They just don’t always want to do it
the way an adult wants them to do it!!

They have their own way of doing things and helping, we need to honor
that. Let them help even if it means that the job isn’t done very
well. Clean up after them because you’re providing a new canvas for
creative explorations. What if you had a small Einstein or Picasso in
your care? Would it be important to help them clean up so they could
get on with the really important work of becoming the creative
geniuses they were born to be? Of course it would!

Children don’t learn dependency by having someone help them clean
up(or cleaning up for them), they learn that you are willing to place
your relationship with them above stuff. As they dabble in and out of
helping you, they WILL grow into reponsibility, just as they learn
everything else.

If they can learn to read in their own time and way, then they can
learn to clean in their own time and way too. And the best part? They
will be helping you because it’s in their hearts, because they CARE,
not because some authority figure told them to.

I ask my kids for help too…nothing wrong with being honest about
your needs (depending on age and ability of child of course).

When I’m tired and cleaning up another mess, sometimes I chant to
myself “I’m helping my creative geniuses, I’m helping my creative
geniuses” or something similar. And sometimes I feel like the
scribbles on the walls and the broken/lost items or chocolate blobs on
the floor with NEVER end!! Then I look at my teens and realize that
the only “mess” I really encounter with them is some dishes (yep, they
even choose to keep their rooms clean, all on their own) and that it
doesn’t last forever. I remind myself to enjoy these messes, because
*I* chose to have them.

I chose to have children and children are most inconvenient, messy and
busy individuals. I chose that. Their messes are a sign that they are
healthy, happy, learning and ALIVE!! I try to be thankful for those
messes (it doesn’t always translate into gratitude, but a shift in
thinking helps a LOT).

Sierra does not like cleaning up her room. I usually clean it for her
(which is an amazing task because she and Jalen can trash it fairly
quick) by myself. She dabbles in and out of helping sometimes, but if
it’s really bad, she just can’t cope with it.

The result? A child that LOVES to do dishes, loves cooking with me,
setting the table, even folding laundry when she sees me doing it.
She’s only 9 years old, she does more than I ever did at that age. But
I don’t make an issue out of what she doen’t do, so she’s more willing
to help in other areas. She really appreciates the gift of a clean
room. Cleaning up for my kids has fostered better relationships all
the way around.

***

**When I’m tired and cleaning up another mess, sometimes I chant to
myself “I’m helping my creative geniuses, I’m helping my creative
geniuses” or something similar. **

This actually makes a lot of sense to me.

I have spent time visiting an out of state friend who is very
compulsive about cleaning. This is tolerable for a short afternoon
visit, but when we stay over at her place it is quite stressful. For
me to constantly remember not to take off my shoes, not to set a book
down or a glass down when I am done with it takes a small, but
significant, mental effort that I have to exert the entire time that I
am there.

I figure a kid who had to try to remember to keep tidiness rules in
mind at all times has less room in his mind for relaxed,
whole-hearted, flowing play. I assume that being tense and vigilant
will interfere with creativity.

***

“Just give a simple, strait-forward answer, then asking them
if they’d like to learn more?”

I’d start with just the simple, straight-forward answer for now.:)
As they learn to trust you, you can add a bit, or see if they want to
look it up. Let them give you cues though. That doesn’t mean you need
to be afraid to share information, but doing it just because you’re
excited rather than trying to “teach” is going to create a very
different atmosphere.

Keep it simple as the trust is rebuilt. Try some strewing to calm your
fears….but let things swirl up naturally.

Posted in The Basics | Tagged be involved, breathe, control, explore, learn, let go, lifestyle, live life, new, newbie, passions, play, questions, say yes, trust

How to handle things the “radical” way

I’ve turned our “classical” homeschooling family upside down recently.
First came my announcement that although I was raised Catholic, I don’t
believe in God. Whew, that’s out of the bag, although my mother still
doesn’t know, shh!. Second came the decision (mutually agreed with by
husband, whew, that makes it easier ;-) ) to unschool and then upon
further research to try to be a radical unschooler. We have four
children: ds7, dd5, dd2 1/2 and dd5 months. I already shocked both
sides of our family when we home birthed, and nurse well beyond
toddlerville and use cloth diapers and wear my babies everywhere I go
and live/eat as organically as affordable. Homeschooling fit right in
to our attachment parenting lifestyle. However, the private school
teacher in me (that I quit once I became pregnant with my first and
wizened up) is finally letting go of her schedules and lesson plans and
scopes and curriculum want lists and letting our children learn naturally.

Enough about me and back to the question at hand. I’m learning and
trying every day to be a more mindful parent. My biggest problem is
thinking fast enough; analyzing the current situation (example: sibling
spat) and trying to figure out the “radical” way to handle it. So far
my hind sight is much clearer, especially after reading this list. How
do you seasoned radicals think fast enough to avoid the raised
voices/threats/punishments? and what will our kids think of us if we
constantly reconfigure how we handled a certain situation in the past?

***

How do we “think fast enough to avoid past actions?” Simple. Time,
experience, pre-planning and screwing up. :) Seriously, not all of us were
raised in a radically unschooled (or at the very least attachment parented)
household and even when we try to do differently, those past influences
still haunt the best of us. Read the archives and see all the times that
Deb, Ren, Rue, Kelly and Pam have “confessed” to learning something new!

What will our kids think if we are constantly reconfiguring situations?
That we are caring, understanding, trusting, forgiving and forgiveable,
learning and kind. My kids were shocked the first time their play got a bit
rough and something was broken (can’t even remember what it was) and I
simply said, “Wow, you guys have a ton of energy. Why don’t you take this
game out under the tree in the backyard while I clean this up?” I got the
“deer in the headlights” stare as they waited for me to blow my cool. It
never blew and the kids enjoyed their game outside and later came in where
we had bowls of ice cream and laughed about the silly rules of their new
game.

It’s ok to show kids you are flexible and changing. Isn’t that how we want
them to be? How better for them to learn that than by witnessing that in
their parents. :-) Welcome to Unschooling!

***
One of the things I learned from these lists is that I do not have
to think as fast as I thought I had to. The recommendation to
breath before reacting has helped a lot. The breath helps me keep
that first knee-jerk thing I think of in my head from exiting my
mouth. I have also learned, in the case of sibling spats, that
silence is a fabulous tool. It’s amazing how easily an issue can be
resolved by my children’s own devices.

If that doesn’t work, I still breathe first and try to separate my
own feelings from the situation. I then try to really listen to the
child(ren). In the case of a fight, I try to separate the children,
so that I can give each child my full attention while helping them
to calm down. I then try to sympathize with their feelings and
validate them, if possible, by sharing my own experience in a
similar situation. I also might explain to each child what the
other person’s perspective might be and what that person might be
feeling. I finally ask each child to tell the other how they are
feeling. This can be very difficult because it’s hard to articulate
what you are feeling when all you really want to do is throw a shoe
at the other person. :) It is just amazing to watch the children
interact after I have taken them through this process. They will
very gently tell the other how they are hurt/angry/upset and then,
this is the part that blows me away, actually make multiple
suggestions on how their sister/brother can avoid the incident in
the future. They actually extend help to the other person that they
were mad at just a few minutes earlier. Often times, after talking
they will run off to play together. I know this sounds long, but it
takes about 5 minutes, 10 minutes max.

***
I don’t think it’s fast thinking. I think it’s about
s-l-o-w-i-n-g-d-o-w-n! <G>

Before you open your mouth, STOP. Breathe. Think. Then say what you
wish you could have heard when you were in that kind of position. How
would *you* have like to have been treated?

Also—you can stop long enough to think of at least TWO options. Pick
the nicer one.

You won’t always do what’s right or best. Forgive yourself. Apologize
to your child(ren). Do better next time.

Slow down.

-=-=-=-=-

and what will our kids think of us if we
constantly reconfigure how we handled a certain situation in the past?

-=-=-=-=-=-

Hopefully, they’ll realize that we can do better when we know better.
That we learn. That we can change. That we are constantly striving to
be better parents. Better people. That we love them enough to be work
at it and make things better. It could give them the same inspiration!
To make good their own mistakes.

I don’t think anyone would *regret* becoming gentler or kinder or more
generous or more patient or more trusting. Do you?

***

Well, I just wanted to say that I don’t analyze quickly or handle.
One thing I’ve learned about me is that THAT is the fast track back
to the parenting I grew up with. So I learned to be comfortable
saying “We need a break” or “I really need time to think about this”
and best of all “Wow, mom really blew that one, what’s something
better we can do?” The kids respect me a lot more for saying sorry
and asking for their advice, and for being able to retract my
tendency to legislate or rule from on high (as Josh puts it) :-P

***

For us, I don’t try to handle the situation. I encourage my boys to talk
about it together. Talk about their feelings. If they can’t do it together
because they are too angry, then they willingly separate for a bit and I talk
with each of them so that we all understand the feelings surrounding the
situation, and each of them has articulated what they are wanting/needing at
that
particular time. Once they can articulate this then they work towards a
mutually agreeable solution. When they were younger they needed more help.
Help
with verbalizing their feelings, wants and needs mostly. I have found that
they have always been the best at coming up with different solutions. As
they get older they need less and less help.

I have been working at this since my boys were babies so it probably comes
easier to me now. But I do know that it is hard work. My dh and I talked
about these issues before we had children. You know those old tapes play over
and over in your head at times. The voice of your mother or grandmother. I
grew up with controlling parents. Naomi Aldort, in her new book, articulates
this well, I think it was her book. About stopping when you want to speak
and letting that old way of thinking play out in your head. Say all the things
that come to mind, those knee jerk reactions, just say them in your head.
Then stop and say what you really mean to say. And if you find those words
actually spilling out of your mouth. It is OK to say let me start again. Take
it back and think about your response and start over. After a while you
won’t have to do that, what you really want to say will be the first thing out
of your mouth.

***

Same way that you know how to ride a bicycle or drive a car or swim
or play tennis or whatever – over time practicing and ‘tweaking’ and
trying again until certain ways of acting become second nature. Not
perfect ever really – it’s a process, a path, a direction, not a
destination to arrive at.

You do the best you can with what you know now and when you know
better, you try to do better. Give yourself that same opportunity to
change and grow that you give your kids. If they question it “Hey
Mom how come last month when I jumped on the couch you yelled and
took away my GameBoy for a week and now you’re helping me pile the
cushions on the floor to jump on?” Keep it simple “I’m sorry I
yelled so much in the past and punished you like that. I’ve come to
realize that yelling and all that was really not the way I wanted to
be so I’m working on changing how I act.” Not only is it explaining
to them what’s going on, it’s giving them a live example that it is
possible to change things, you don’t have to be ‘stuck’ with this or
that behavior or habit if you don’t want to be. And, too, they see
that grownups aren’t perfect – think of how often adults do things
to kids they wouldn’t want done to them yet how little kids get
apologized to the way we would to another adult. For instance, if I
yelled at my DH for something, I’d likely apologize when I cooled
down “I’m sorry I yelled – I was really frustrated because…” and
we’d discuss it. For some folks, if they yell at a child, they see
no need to say “I’m sorry I yelled, I was really frustrated
because…” and discuss the situation. They just go on and assume
it’ll all blow over and apologizing to kids is a sign of “weak
parenting” or something, a “lack of control” over the kids.
Apologies are often seen as a sign of weakness in our culture – only
the weaker party need apologize- if you’re stronger, richer, more
powerful, etc. just go about your business no matter what you’ve
done.

***

“How do you seasoned radicals think fast enough to avoid the raised
voices/threats/punishments? and what will our kids think of us if we
constantly reconfigure how we handled a certain situation in the past?”

I don’t always!!!:) But I do hear it as a very dissonant chord when it
comes out of my mouth, and I rephrase or try to start over.

As far as what our children think, if we reconfigure? Hopefully, that
we’re learning and growing right along with them!! Sierra said “You’re
the best mom EVER” today. Sweet, but I said “I don’t know about that,
but I’m learning how to be a better Mom every day”

Which is true. Every interaction, every day gives us moments to make
new and better choices. That’s how growth works.:)

***

Posted in Radical Unschooling | Tagged breathe, change, experience, flexible, pre-planning, radical unschooling, time

Unschooling vs. radical unschooling

Can someone explain the difference between unschooling and radical
unschooling?

***

I actually have started using two different terms than Unschooling and
Radical Unschooling. The term I use to differentiate between Radical
Unschooling and other forms of “unschooling” is the term
“Non-Curriculum Homeschooling” NCH is simply that. It is home
educating your child while not using a formal curriculum and

approaching learning in a “self discovery” way. RU encompasses the
freedom of learning into all aspects of life. This includes such
controversial issues as freedom of food and sleep, freedom from

assigned chores and punitive discipline. It’s living a free and
joyful life, not just abandoning a curriculum track. I know some
people who use NCH who are still very strict punitive disciplinarians,
control issues of food and sleep and are not living joyful fulfilled
lives.

Our whole family is unschooling now, including the adults.

***

Thanks for giving this definition. The way you described Radical
Unschooling is really what I’ve always believed Unschooling to be.

Imagine that, me radical! :-)

***

So if I already do these things but havent managed to totaly abandon the
curriculum and “when will she learn to read voices in my head” what am I? an
unparent?

***

Mindful/gentle parent who’s not yet an unschooler? <g>

***

Hey some of us are slower learners than others. *grin*
Im coming around slowly. Ya know though Id hadnt realized how far Ive come
untill we moved in with some friends of ours.
DH has a job again now and we are trying to find our own place asap .

Partially because of the drive to his job ( 1.5 hours each way) and partially

: Image via Wikipedia

because our parenting philosophies have become so different.
Yet I remember doing many of the same things they do just a few years ago……making my children stand in the corner, spanking, not allowing dessert till dinner was eaten and not allowing snacking …………etc.
::::Shudders::::

***

Ya know what? I go into Target and other places and see parents treating their children horribly. I think unschooling is wonderful and great for children and families, but if I got to pick whether a family was gentle and mindful
wioth their children or totally unschooled, I’d pick the gentle parenting every
time.

I also believe that someone who can make the most important changes in their
parenting will absolutely get there with the unschooling.

***

I wish every parent was *at least* mindful and gentle. We were at a
friend’s house this past Friday night. There was another mother there
with her 5yo daughter. She was a bright sweet joyful child and how
she has retained that joy is beyond me! Her mother had all these
rules and controlled everything that she did and ate. The child had
to eat at the table and had 2 measured tablespoons of food on her
plate. I am NOT kidding. She ha 1 T of mac-n-cheese and 1 T of a
casserole. The child ate it and was still hungry. Asked for more.
“No; that is all you need. There is sufficient nutrients in what you
had to eat.” (While the mother sat there eating a huge bowl of food!)
“May I have a cookie?” LONG pause “I suppose so, but you have to eat
it at the table.” (My kids were munching on a piece of bread in the
workshop while playing and watching tv.) Later the child did a
cartwheel headfirst into a coffee table. She was screaming. It’s
that “I need my mommy I’m in horrible pain and scared” scream that
makes me drop everything I am doing and run to my child. We had to
tell the mother THREE times that her child needed her. Then the
mother barely held the child and only reprimanded her for doing
cartwheels in the house. “That’s what you get for doing cartwheels
where they don’t belong. Next time you won’t do that will you.” No
comfort, no compassion, no empathy for having a huge goose egg on her
head. My heart yearned so badly for this child. I wanted to grab her
from her mother and hold her and stroke her hair and kiss her forehead
and soothe her poor battered body and kiss her little tears away. All
I kept thinking all evening was, “I just wish she showed a little
gentleness and love towards this child.” All the reaction between
mother and child was clinical and sterile and reprimanding. :-(

***

All of our best friends over the years have been very diverse. Some
schooled, some homeschooled, some public…varying religions and
cultures. The one things our very closest friends have in common, is
that they’re kind and sweet to their children. I really don’t care
about much else, I just want to hang out with people that are nice to
their kids and not jumping on them for every little thing.

***

Well, I’ve just had another miserable weekend with friends who
traditionally parent. I could not get over the number of times I
heard the parents verbally tearing down their children. There was
this constant message that their children were not measuring up.
These are just some of the things I heard. “Why is it that other
people’s children do what I tell them, but _my_ own children never do
what I tell them to?” Or… “She’s just a space case. She’s eleven;
she should be able to clean her own room. We’re being stricter now and
withholding her privileges when she doesn’t clean her room. Her
psychologist supports us in this.” or… “Say thank you to Dana for
handing you a napkin.” (Oh, palllease) Or… “That’s really good that
sissy (made up name) controlled her self and didn’t eat the pie.” The
pie, I might mention, was being served to everyone at the party, both
children and adults.

Throughout the litany of degrading comments, they would throw in an
occasional “Good job!” when their little pets, I mean children, did
what they were told. My son got a couple “good jobs” from the parents
and I just had to cringe.

When they would have a kind word about their child, it was always a
boast about him or her meeting some kind of expectation.

I walked into the office at my friend’s house where the teenage boys
were playing on the computer and getting ready to play some pokemon.
When they saw me, all three of them visibly flinched. These boys were
just having some fun, but I got the distinct impression they were
gripping themselves for getting some kind of trouble from this
adult. I just said jokingly, “I come in peace,” and they all
relaxed. Their initial reaction though, made me very sad.

It is getting so painful for me now to participate in these
gatherings. I just want to say to the parents, please stop NOW and
look at how you are treating your children. It helps me feel better
by interacting and playing with their children and treating them with
respect. I am amazed every time I do this that the children respond
so well when treated respectfully, even when it is for a short time.

So, I have to say that I am getting a bit more selective with who I
hang out with these days, myself.

***

I’m starting to be that way more and more. Why should I be around
people who don’t bring me or my kids joy?? If they are disrespectful
to their own children, chances are they will be to mine as well. I like
to surround myself with people I respect and inspire me.

I am struggling soooooo much with this right now. We are currently staying
with some friends of ours right now trying to get back on our feet. We were
great friends before we all had kids but Im just really wanting to seperate
myself more and more now.

They are NOT mindful gentle parents at all. They are constantly yelling at
their 6 year old, she is constantly throwing fits , constantly whining about
food ( no wonder when she is only allowed 3 meals a day ) and they control
everything !

Tonight Courtney , my 7 year old went to walmart with me and asked momma am I
a pig? What?? no!! ( lol she is 7 and weighs 43 lbs) I realized later where she
got that idea from when she mentioned that it was against the rules to eat to
much here.
I told her that it seemed like that yes but if she was hungry Id always get
her food.

Ive tried to encourage the other parents and gotten nowhere. Luckily we should
be in our new house next Monday ( I hope ) .

***

I hear ya. I never thought twice about these sorts of comments before I
found unschooling.

I’m finding more things that I can’t comfortably attend anymore with my son.
One is an indoor/outdoor play gathering for toddlers in our area. It’s kind
of like a huge open gym full of toys and riding toys, etc. and then an
outdoor area that people spill into after the gym closes (lots of water
features/sprinklers, etc.).

The last time we were there, another mom with a girl the same age as my son
(2) was just constantly tearing apart her daughter. Snacks brought on a
littany of, “only eat one at a time” and “hey, watch it, not so many”. She
was sharing her snacks with other kids and her mom said to the other moms
(out loud, of course), “don’t worry if your kids eat all her snacks – no one
eats as much as my daughter and she could use a break”. Then she promptly
cut her off and packed away the snacks – little girl screaming and crying.

Also, she was loudly complaining about how her daughter doesn’t want to use
the potty and she doesn’t understand why she is still in diapers (at 2?).
She said that all she wants to do in the bathroom is brush her teeth
constantly and, “that’s all she would do all day if I didn’t put a stop to
it”. Later she rushed to check her daughter’s diaper while she was in the
middle of playing and the girl was upset at being interrupted. Her mom said,
“well, if you’d learn to use the potty we wouldn’t have this problem”.

All this in a really big gym and my son and I weren’t even close. So many
little fights and arguments for nothing. So many detrimental words and
actions in such a short time. My son kept staring at the little girl and
pointing out how she was crying. It’s tough to watch and I’m actively
seeking out other types of parents, too!

***

The other night DH and I were out to dinner together (DS was playing
in the wading pool at MIL’s with his cousin) and we got seated in an
area where there were kids pretty much everywhere around us
(sometimes that’s my favorite place because I can smile at the kids
and play peek and the looks they give DH because of his Santa-look
are priceless). Anyhow, the table across from us was 3 adults and a
toddler, looked about 2 maybe 3 at most. She was standing next
to “dad” (just guessing at the various roles/relationships). “mom”
was standing, cutting up something on a plate at the place adjacent
to the “dad” which I can only guess was the tot’s seat. They kept
saying “you have to sit down to eat dinner” and the little one
didn’t want to. She wanted dinner and standing up. They wrassled and
she fussed and they demanded and she resisted until finally
the “mom” took the girl out of the restaurant and the dad told the
waitress who had arrived with the rest of the food to put it in take
out boxes because the little girl couldn’t behave and had to be
taken out. I could just imagine the shaming that girl received “it’s
your fault we had to leave…” As they were wrassling, I told DH in
a slightly louder than my usual voice but not pointedly yelling
voice about how the other day when DS (he’s 8) was having dinner
with me at a restaurant, he would stand and go around the side of
the table to eat his side dish (which was literally on a side dish)
instead of having both dishes in front of him and then he would go
around the side of the table and stand to eat the other side of his
huge piece of chocolate cake dessert. I was kind of hoping they
could hear that it was Okay for a kid to not sit down to eat, even
in a restaurant, provided it was a safe spot (not likely to get
bumped into and such).

They left, we went on with dinner, but every once in a while I’d
growl a little and DH would say “Still thinking about that huh?” It
just bothered me the whole time. Then we went out and got a surprise
for DS (a new, real, electronic dart board with soft tip darts to
replace his toy bristle dart dartboard that was falling apart).

***

I have often taken a restless child out of a restaurant. Not as
punishment, but as relief for the child. Keon does not sit and wait
well. Sometimes he is just so restless that being in a restaurant
waiting for food is anguishing. It’s never been a big deal. I’ve
even taken him out with a menu to sit on a bench outside and used my
cell phone to “phone in” our orders! LOL! I truly believe that it
was physically uncomfortable for Keon to sit and wait while he watched
other tables having food brought to them. Sadly, many times when we
have walked out of a restaurant I have heard people say presumingly,
“OH I bet he’s in for it now!” Meaning that he is being punished, when
the opposite is true. I’ve even had our meals packed in a to go box
and then gone outside to sit and eat because he just didn’t want to be
there in that restaurant at that moment. I probably looked like the
couple you were describing, but I sure didn’t treat my child in that
fashion.

Little bodies sometimes just need to be able to move as they need.
There was a time when I just prefered not eating out because I knew
that society expected a certain level of conformity that was not
reasonable for all (or most) children. It wasn’t because my children
couldn’t “behave” in public but because I knew that they would be much
more comfortable at home.

***

I have taught my kids to quietly tell me they need a walkabout. Of course if I
sense it even if they havent told me then we do. It just works good for us to
teach them to express things like this so we can take care of it before they
become a big disruption to others.

I also keep a couple of bags packed in my trunk. One is you basic changes of
clothes, blanket diapers etc. The other I try to change out with new suprises in
…but paper, bottles of mini bubbles, cards etc………..I find this really
helpful when we have to go to dr appts and I have no choice but to take all of
them and its hard to leave because we are waiting for our name to be called.

I have to say my children’s old pediatrician knew just what she was doing. She
had her practice in an old house and there was the normal inside waiting room
with toys n such , then a fenced in “waiting yard” :)

***

I know what you mean about taking your child out of the restaurant. When my
son gets freakishly active – trying to stand on the table or wanting to run
in the aisles of the restaurant while people are working – I or my husband
take him outside to run back and forth on the sidewalk in front of the
restaurant. I think people must think we’re crazy running back and forth in
front of everyone. The other adult left inside the restaurant orders for
everyone and we go back inside once the food is at the table. That way, he’s
got all of his super energy out and then is able to focus on eating – of
course, he has to stand on his seat next to us while eating, but I don’t
mind that :)

***

That’s why we often pick strategically located tables and request
them specifically. And we’ve come up with things like “basketball”
with Joshua – he stands and I put my hand out head high to him and
he bounces up and down, just tapping my hand with his head each time
so it looks like I am dribbling him like a basketball. That takes
minimal space (a table near a wall with him between me and the wall
works) and it gives him an outlet for movement without his becoming
a hazard to himself or others. We’ll do thumb wars, arm wrestling,
whatever. And sometimes we sit outside and wait (helps if both DH
and I have our cell phones – DH can call us when food arrives). One
favorite place has those claw machine things in the lobby/waiting
area so we make sure to bring a handful of quarters with us and
we’ll play there while waiting to sit and go back there if the
service is slow (it rarely is at this place, if you time it right -
see below).

We also try to time things – NO going to certain restaurants on
Friday or Saturday evenings – too much wait, too long for service
because the kitchen is super-busy, etc. Sometimes we’ll have a snack
in transit, before we leave the house, or even sitting at the table
if need be (that’s where asking for several packs of crackers AS we
sit comes in) and I have no qualms about producing a couple packets
of crackers from my purse as needed. (DH jokes that my purse is a
magic black hole – it always seems to have exactly what we need as
we need it).

And sometimes we just don’t even bother going out – we know that
we’re all tired or whatever and it’s just better to go home and eat
PBJs in calm than to try to get a meal at a restaurant. And, too,
since Joshua has spent most of his life eating at restaurants on a
regular basis, he’s kind of used to it. Plus, a big one that a lot
of “mainstream” families don’t get, is that HE also has a say in
where we go and has since he could express his opinion. So, for
example, we don’t go to Chili’s as a family – it’s too loud and busy
for him. If DH and I really really want Chili’s food, we go when
Joshua is at Grandma’s or work some other arrangements out. Just as
since DH doesn’t like another particular restaurant that Joshua and
I like, so he stays home and Joshua and I go there occasionally on
our mom & son dates.

***

I have no problems with families who are being respectful of their
kids’ needs to move or find other venues or whatever. But that
wasn’t this situation – I was close enough to hear what they were
saying to and about her and the situation.

And, too, I think most of us would also try to gauge the situation
ahead of time and prepare, plan, and arrange things to be more
comfortable for those involved (kids AND adults) or just not go if
the child or children were just not at a place where they could
handle it.

We’ve taken Joshua outside, we’ve deliberately requested particular
locations in certain restaurants, we’ve requested crackers and lemon
slices and such as we sat down so there’d be something ASAP on the
table to munch. We’ve even had Joshua sit there with his gameboy and
headphones (which some people find horrifying). Whatever works,
works.

***

I see the sad state of the way so many children are treated often. I see
it when I’m at work, when I’m shopping, when I’m out to dinner. It only
reinforces my own values of respectful parenting… that we can begin to
change this world one child at a time.

***

I ran into this with a family (and parents) that I really, really like. They
have this sweet, slightly whiney, but pretty easy kid. One day the mom was
quite gleeful in describing how Ali had lost “chair privileges” at dinner for
…oh, I have no idea what. Doing something clearly very terrible with her
chair at dinner. Perhaps she was using it to slaughter the family pets. This
mom also described how Ali almost lost “door privileges” for slamming her
bedroom door.

I kind of feel sorry for these people. They’re trying SOOOO hard to find
“logical consequences” that they’ve lost their minds.
Kathryn

***

> The psychologist is being paid by the parents, not the child. As a
> psychologists, it helps to know which side your bread is buttered on!
>
> If the child were paying the bill, my guess is that the advice would be
> to change the parents’ behavior, not the child’s.
>

Wow this is really deep. I’ve always wondered when a family goes to a
psychologist why the children are always seen as the one with the
problem rather than the parents. I guess parents are perfect and
children need to be changed to meet parental expectations. And I
never thought about the money factor before.

***

Posted in Unschooling | Tagged family, gentle, mindful, radical unschooling, respectful parenting, Unschooling

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