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The Basics

Principles

I just read Danielle’s article on principles vs. rule. Now I am
wondering -
from those of you who have made this switch fully – which principles are
relevant for your households? Would anyone mind sharing?

Kindness
Generosity
Patience
Trust
Respect for ourselves and others
Gentleness with animals
Thoughtfulness
Safety
Honesty
Flexibility
Courtesy
Gratefulness
Empathy

There may be some others, but these jumped out of my head immediately.

How do you implement those principles?

I still struggle with my boys punching each other :( I say, “don’t hit,
use your words!” and they still whack each other.

My oldest also has a tendency to want whatever his brothers have. It
annoys me very much because they are younger and have little in
comparison to him yet he’s grabbing their stuff. DS is still going
through deschooling, so is it related to destressing from school? Or is
it he is jealous of them?

“We are kind and gentle with each other.”

“It’s my job to make sure *each and every ONE* of you feels safe in
this house.”

And you need to be close by. Why are they left alone long enough for
things to escalate to punching?

Sandra told her boys there are three steps:

1) talk it out
2) if that doesn’t work, get an adult to help you work it out
3) if that doesn’t work, you can hit each other

BUT! They have to go through steps one and two FIRST! <G>

I have the same policy for them, #1 talk it out, #2 ask mom for help.
As for leaving them alone, that annoys me to no end because no parent
ever is right there supervising their children eyeball to eyeball 24/7.
The moment I look away somebody comes up to me saying he hit me! I am
so irritated and frustrated with them about that.

One time the oldest punched one of his twin brothers in the nose so hard
it bled. We were in the van driving back home from school and I normally
have my rearview mirror planted square on them, but this time I
concentrated on traffic until I saw the tussle in the back. I
immediately pulled over and told DS to get out of the van. He asked if I
was going to leave him, I said no. He had to stay and wait while I
cleaned up his brother. I told him that I can’t allow him back in if
he’s going to be a danger to his brother. I let him back in after he
apologized and after he answered affirmatively my question of whether
he’s going to be safe with his brothers.

I still feel angry over this. I’ve tried explaining things over and over
and I did the same #1 #2 policy in my own accord. It’s not working.

I feel angry about oldest DS’s tendency to take things away from his
twin brothers. It’s constant competition and jealousy and I do NOT want
this for them. I want peace in my house. :(

Ok venting over – I think the big issue here is that I’m Deaf and they
do not sign when they’re quarreling. So how can I intervene when I can’t
catch when things are escalating? (Why my children don’t sign all the
time is a long story and something I wish did not happen.) Often oldest
DS says one of his (4 yr old) brothers has said something that he
disagreed with and I ask him if whacking him solved the problem.

I think the issue here is that he’s outnumbered – the twins are close to
each other and he’s alone. We also have a lot of things shared in
common. He’s had “his” things before but as the twins grow into his
stuff things get a little mixed up. He grabs their things as well.

I’m guessing a solution would be to establish separate toy bins for each
boy and have their names on them, and separate items for each of them?
This way they can have true ownership and feel free to share… And
instead of doing the steps which aren’t working, I would try the “we are
kind to each other” tack. Any more suggestions?

Don’t be irritated with them! See it as a cry for help. They don’t
know what to do or how to solve the problem.

They’re in a mindset that says “If I don’t grab what I want then I’m
not going to be able to get it.”

You need to help them out of that.

You’re in a mindset that you need to stop the hitting. What will help
is looking past the hitting to what’s causing the hitting. Obviously
stop the hitting but then focus on the problem. You’re turning the
hitting into the problem and the original problem is probably getting
lost in the confusion. Focus on the original problem. Help them
figure out how to fix that. Help them know that you want to help
everyone get what they need *and* feel safe.

Rather than focusing on changing them from kids who hit to kids who
don’t hit, help them find ways not to hit. When they hit it’s a cry
for help. They really don’t know what else to do. Telling them not to
is obviously not working.

Focus on what led up to the hitting. If it’s toys they’re fighting
over, help them figure out ahead of time ways to not fight over the
toys. Involve them all in helping solve the problem and listen to
their ideas. If the ideas don’t pan out, help them revise them and
think up new ideas.

The transition period is rough. They’re used to fighting to get their
needs met. They’re going to hear your attempts at helping them
problem solve as just new ways to say “Stop hitting and fix this
problem now.” It will take a while until they gain confidence that
you really are committed to helping them get what they want.

> Irritated and frustrated that someone came to you for help?

I’d be fine with them coming up to me for help but I feel like on this
issue we have talked it into a morass, where no one seems to be
listening to each other and people are still getting hit.

I feel those emotions because we’ve gone through this over and over
again. “Please don’t hit your brother, it hurts. When your brother is
done with the toy, you can have it. What time will you be done with
this toy? Let him have the toy, it is his turn. So what if your
brother said no over something that doesn’t make sense? Does he have
control over that and does hitting him solve the problem?”

> It’s a small house, right? How far can you actually BE from them?

I used to physically separate them into time-outs but since I hurt my
back and snapped my ACL I’ve been unable to get into the thick of things
without getting hurt myself. I have to yell to stop things from a
distance and even then it doesn’t work. So I feel powerless too. :( I’m
laid up now, just finished with ACL reconstruction surgery.

> So it *is* a fear.
> Whether he’s lying or not?

How could I have approached this situation better, then? There was blood
all over his brother’s face and we were heading towards a construction
zone. They were fighting because the twin had said no and pouted over
something, both had been hitting on each other. There are real-world
consequences to beating up people – including lock-up. My thinking was,
remove the aggressor from the situation NOW. Then clean up and talk
about it. I am out of ideas if this only creates a revenge complex in
them :(

> Change the anger to curiosity.

It is difficult because I feel stumped on this. I’ve read the Siblings
Without Rivalry book, joined this list, consensual living, read all I
could and I’m still not getting it right.

> Why do they feel compettitive and jealous? What is causing that?

The bad old days I think. :( There were major power and control issues
going on in our home until DH and I separated abt 2 years ago. Since
then he’s gone to counseling but DS has grown up in that environment and
I really want to change that.

> Yeah—but how is that helping them?

I thought it’s help him see the futility of that option. It’s difficult
if I’m out of ideas myself too. Maybe it’ll be different after each of
them has their own space?

You know it just occurred that maybe because DS has more options
compared to the twins (one said recently, “I want to be homeschooled!”)
and because DS tries to control them, they feel powerless. So they hold
onto “insignificant” things like toys or verbal comments because that’s
where they feel like they have control. The twins are still in
preschool and my mother was just telling me about how the teacher needs
to keep order, etc. DS also probably feels powerless himself from when
he was in school.

I’m not perfect myself either, and the kids copy my mistakes. My
thinking is away from the “control kids” model but when things get
stressful I find my ideas and options narrowing down.

Let’s take one difficult situation for example -

DS likes to sing in the van. I am unaware of this unless I see his mouth
moving and head bobbling. Singing does not bother me. Everything would
be fine and dandy if DS didn’t insist he sings alone or has total
silence instead. The end result is usually a lot of drama. I don’t
have a means for monitoring volume in the van.

Any suggestions on how to defuse this?

> I still struggle with my boys punching each other :( I say, “don’t
> hit,
> use your words!” and they still whack each other.

Apparently they need more help. You’re seeing the world through your
eyes and wondering why they can’t too. See the world through their eyes.

Assume they’re doing the best they can. The advice you’re giving them
obviously is not working for them to solve the problem. If I’d kept
asking my sister to give something to me when we were kids and she
wouldn’t .. then what? If mom said only use words and didn’t give me
a tool to use after the words had failed it would be maddening. I’d
want to smack her! ;-) What other choice would I have when the only
tool she’d given me had failed?

Sandra Dodd had 3 steps:

1) talk it out
2) get an adult to help
3) then hit

She has a lot of good writing at:

http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting

Also you need to be present more. Mindful parenting isn’t a list of
rules to hand to kids and send them off with. Be their partner in
helping them get what they want. Rather than seeing situations as
something to fix, figure out ways to *help* them get what they want.
It’s a subtle but important role shift.

> My oldest also has a tendency to want whatever his brothers have. It
> annoys me very much because they are younger and have little in
> comparison to him yet he’s grabbing their stuff.

What you’ve written dismisses his feelings. He has a need and he’s
trying to fulfill it and you’re blowing off his need because they’re
younger and he’s older. That’s not only maddening but whittling away
at your relationship with him. He sees you putting them ahead of him.

Separate his need from his actions. Don’t dismiss his need just
because he doesn’t have the tools to meet it. *Help* him meet it.

That’s doesn’t mean everyone will get what they want immediately. But
help them build trust in you that you will work hard to help
*everyone* get what they want.

The reason kids keep fighting over something they want is because
they’ve learned from past behavior that’s the only way to get it.
Give them the confidence that their needs are important to you and
you will help them.

And, again, don’t think of those as rules. You aren’t going to *make*
your kids be thoughtful. It isn’t a standard that you’ll make them
live up to.

Be thoughtful toward them. You can also help them think up ways you
can both do something thoughtful for someone else who has done nice
things for you. (And if they don’t want to, you do it because it’s
important to you to be thoughtful. If you don’t want to do it on your
own, you shouldn’t be making them do it! Do it because you feel it’s
the right thing to do, not because it’s a lesson you want to impose
on your kids. *Live* your principles.)

Live these. Use these in your interactions with them and others. Help
them use them as tools to figure out problems. That’s what they are:
tools to help us decide if something is in keeping with our philosophy.

Here’s something I wrote a bit ago:

No right or wrong way to unschool
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/unschooling/noonerightwaytounschool.html

 

Is my life too boring for unschooling?

I have read many of John Holts books and numerous unschooling
websites/blogs and I am both excited and nervous. Most of the
featured families seem to live much more enriching lives than our
family. I am not complaining, I love our life and felt content, but
now I wonder if it is “enough” of an environment to unschool. We
live in the suburbs instead of on a farm or in a city, although we
do go to museums and outings a couple times a month. We don’t have
a homebased enterprise where the children can learn about economics
and we don’t have jobs where we can take them.

I do volunteer work,
but it is with battered women, so I can’t involve the kids there,
although I am sure that there are community programs where the kids
could get involved if we decided to go in that direction instead. I
am not super creative, although I can work a glue gun in a pinch,
but I don’t make my own furniture or clothes. We do enjoy our
children and like spending time with them, and as we are learning
more about unschooling we are shedding a lot of our prior notions
about what is kid stuff and what is for adults (although I still
can’t get hubby to let dear son use power tools—-he is 4)

So I guess I am wondering how average (god I hate that word) people
unschool. Do they? Or maybe this is also an opportunity to really
examine the “averageness” of our lives and make some changes? Are
there any reading materials that include how children are soaking up
knowledge in the midst of conventional life? Or are the featured
families I am reading about not the norm but the “goal”?

***

We don’t live on a farm or in a city – it’s 15-20 minutes to the
mall (and DS has his own Starbuck’s card lol). I WOH fulltime, DH is
fulltime at home with DS. Our days consist of lots of videogames
(both DH and DS love them, I’m just getting going on an old GameBoy
with Pokemon Ruby), movies, TV, occasional campfires in the back
yard (don’t forget the ‘smores!!), lots of time hanging out with our
games (both guys have Nintendo DSs and I have the GBA) at Starbucks.
We look at stars when the night sky is really clear – but we don’t
know all the constellations and we don’t (yet) have a super
telescope. Yesterday DH spent a good part of the day making a case
for his DS from duct tape (it’s pretty cool). DS and I want one too
so we’re going to Staples tonight to pick up multi colors of duct
tape. Most of what goes into blogs and postings are the “highlights”
and occasional “lowlights”, not the average days. I might post about
how DS did this or that cool thing but that’s one “postable” thing
among dozens of days.

A typical week is basically: I work, they game, housework gets done,
we eat on a fairly regular basis, grocery shopping gets done, we
watch movies/TV (old episodes of MASH and Monty Python are ‘hot’ at
our house right now), we play with the dog, watch the fish in the
fish tank (nothing ‘fancy’, some mollies, some neon tetras, and of
course the scum sucker fish), maybe play some board games. That’s
about it. Oh, we do have one ‘date night’ per week, that alternates
between DH and DS (I get 4 dates each month, they each get 2). When
DH and I go out, DS visits MIL and FIL.

I wouldn’t write off the kids being involved with your volunteer
work. Yes, they probably can’t come with you BUT they could
collect/donate toys for the kids of the women that come through the
shelter (for example).

You’re focusing on what you don’t have, don’t do, etc. What DO you
have? What DO you love? What DO the kids love? If there are things
you’d love to do but haven’t, look for ways to explore them. Big
exciting stuff all the time isn’t really typical as far as I’ve
seen. Curiousity about the whole world is. And when you’re curious
about everyone and everything, life really isn’t so boring -there’s
always something new to explore, do, learn – whether it’s clearing a
bit of backyard space for a firepit or learning how to make sushi or
shopping in an ethnic market or going to a park in a different part
of town. Your kids already know this, learn from them.

***

>> I do volunteer work,
> but it is with battered women, so I can’t involve the kids there,
> although I am sure that there are community programs where the
kids
> could get involved if we decided to go in that direction instead.

That’s something to look into if your kids are interested – maybe
see if there’s a food pantry associated with the shelter so all
y’all can work together.

But the overall question is more “are the kids bored”? Real life
isn’t always mile-a-minute excitement, and that’s a good thing. I
enjoy having long days of doing “nothing much” with my kids -
nesting.

That sort of thing doesn’t make good press, so it doesn’t get
written about much. Yesterday, my dd and I made playdoh and she and
Ray played on the new PS2 most of the day. She climbed trees and
spun on her sit-n-spin at various times, found a little mud to
smoosh, and dug a really nice hole in the sawdust pile. Ray worked
on making a spear and did some target-practice with it in between
playing on the PS2. That’s about it. Pretty normal day. We do have
some excitement now and then, but our life is pretty cozy, rather
than thrilling.

***

So your kids haven’t won the spelling bee, enrolled in college
at 12 and found a cure for cancer? You are not hosting cow milking lessons while
wearing your denim jumper? You and the kids did not build your home from the
plans on the back of a cereal box?

And, yet, some of us manage to unschool. :)

A dear unschooling friend and I joke that nobody really suspects what we are up
to. We look so white bread suburban it is ridiculous. She’s driving around in
her minivan and me in my (very used :) ) Volvo station wagon. The kids are being
carted to this event or that activity. DH’s both go to work and we Moms stay
home. How “Leave It To Beaver” could we look?? :)

But the secret is that what things look like from the outside is not what
matters.

My kids are being carted to things they chose! For instance.

When we are at home, we are not sitting around the kitchen table crunching math
worksheets. We are online or DS is gaming or DH and DD are puttering in the yard
or we are lounging with whatever book we picked up at the library or. . . etc. .
. just glorious everyday life. In a loving home with mutual support.

We have not built any rocket ships in the kitchen sink but we do what we want to
do and are happily unschooling. And you can too! :)

***

LOL I always love it when this stereotype pops up because DH is the at
home parent with DS, going places and doing things. He’d look so
loverly in a denim jumper with his big old beard! Think a youngish
Santa (pre-white hair) in a jumper and that’d be DH. It’d make it a
little tough getting in and out of our big, black Ford F150 fullsize
pickup. LOL

***

> You are not hosting cow milking lessons while wearing your denim
>jumper?

Hey you ALL…<<<G>>> We don’t give any ” lessons” on milking cows but if any
of you ever want to come milk some we can certainly show you how.
And my DH wears bibs/jeans overalls ( AKA denin jumper ) everyday morning and
night to milk our cows…lol.
My ds wears them with a red shirt so he can be like Super Mario ( he couldn’d
care less about the cows right now).

***

I’ve been struggling with the same concerns about whether our ‘average’ life
measures up for an unschooling environment. Some of the unschooler’s blogs I’ve read from
various sites have left me questioning if I am a slacker! Granted, I have a new
baby, and have to let a LOT of things go, but I have a hard time watching my
4.8yo occupy himself so much with TV and video games, which I allow only so I
can have a breather.

But when I take stock of what we accomplish in a days’
time, from conversations we have (that a month later he’ll repeat ver-batem), to
cooking time shared, and the oh-so-many learning opportunities that fall

in-between our ‘activities’. I’m raising a compassionate, self-motivated, well grounded little boy, who is a joy to be around.
I guess the question is, am I self-motivated? In my own way, I am. During my
entire childhood I had a scheduled life. To this day, my mother attempts to
impose a schedule on me (to no avail). I have chosen an unscheduled life,
whereby I live by inspiration. ‘What do I feel like doing now’ is what I live
by. I offer the same lifestyle to my children. I feel it is their right, as is
it mine. When I am still, inspiration comes.

Some days I crave learning new
things. I find my 4.8yo is the same (as I presume we all are, given the freedom
to be still long enough to listen to ourselves.)
Writing gives me clarity, and I have found the reassurance I was seeking by
just writing about this. I guess one unschooling principle that applies to this
subject is ‘not imposing outside standards/expectations on our children’s
development.’ Now if we could only figure out how to take that advice re: our
own parental development!

***

I really appreciate all the responses! I guess I knew that it would
be okay, but just needed some mirroring that it is enough just to live
and learn together. I need to be gentle with myself as well in this
adventure. Of course it goes against everything I and most people
know about education and the trust will grow over time. I feel like I
am about to jump off a high dive without being able to see that there
is water underneath.

***

> I feel like I
> am about to jump off a high dive without being able to see that
there
> is water underneath.
>

The water is fine!!!!!

JUMP!

and enjoy.

The Basics of Unschooling

I homeschool my three children using the
Charlotte Mason method but I am very interested in learning more
about unschooling and may possibly start trying to implement this in
our home. Anyone familiar with the Charlotte Mason Method? I was
wondering if I could some how implement both.

With the Charlotte
Mason method we do nature, narrations after reading, listen to folk,
hymn, and classical music, picture study, short lessons, and we read
from real books instead of textbooks. I was thinking that I could
do unschooling and try to incorporate some of the aspects of
Charlotte Mason into our daily routine such as the following:
Playing classical music in the backgroud while during different
things, going on nature walks, keeping real living books around-
without telling they must read them but having them available,
Showing them a picture-taking it away- and telling them to tell me
about it, having a read aloud time with my family, etc.

What’s a typical day like for the unschooling family?

***

Basics? Trust. Patience. Respect. Generosity. Kindness.

***

Here are some of the stumbling blocks I see:

There’s nothing wrong with playing classical music in the background,
if that’s what you all like, but if you’re valuing that style of music
above Rock-n-roll, bluegrass, folk, reggae or any other style of
music, then you’re limiting your world. Unschooling is about expanding
our world.

Classical music isn’t inherently better than any other style of music,
nor does it lead to more/better learning experiences.

Nature walks are great, if they’re allowed to be enjoyed by each
person rather than turned into some kind of “lesson”.

If someone showed me a picture and took it away, asking me to tell
them about it, I’d be really annoyed. Unschooling is all about
authentic interactions. If moments are contrived in order to “teach”
or get information into our children that WE think is important, we
miss the more important things that THEY think are important.

If you want to get to unschooling, take a deep breathe and realize
that Charlotte Mason was one person, with her own ideas and prejudices
about what is proper and good to learn. She had some great ideas too.
The problem I see with any learning method that places certain
activities as more valuable, is it misses the point that the child
right in front of us has their own interests that may or may not
coincide with that method.

The most important thing for me is to assist my children in exploring
the world in their own way. The Charlotte Mason ideas appealed to me,
but my video-game loving children have their own ideas!:)

***

So expose your children to everything….books ..art ..nature
..music..handicrafts etc … create that rich enviroment, BUT don’t have daily lessons or a daily routine. For instance don’t *require* a narration after your child reads a book, but you might find yourself just chatting * together* about the book *IF* your child *wants* to. Don’t *require* daily copywork, but you might find your child *wants* and *enjoys* writing in a journal or keeping a book of quotes, etc.

And YOU go ahead and do the things YOU are passionate about, whether from CM
or not…. and they might join in…or NOT. But respect their choice.

We unschool… and our days are *filled* with nature and art and books and
music and handicrafts…. AND TV and video games ! <<G>>

Just live life doing what you all love and see …..

***

Here’s something I started doing a while ago whenever I thought of
something I thought my kids would like to do. Rather than push it on
them – whether it was a movie or a book, a garden or a nature
journal. I do it myself. I have read children’s books that I thought
looked interesting. I have discovered so many wonderful things that
*I* enjoy. I started keeping a list of backyard birds on the back
door. Every time I see a new one, I identify it with my bird book and
write it down. In the process, through watching me do it and asking
questions, my kids have learned about identifying birds. One day a
bird got into the house while I was outside. My son described it to
me in detail and we discovered that it was a Carolina Wren.
***

Newbie to unschooling

I’m mom to 3 great kids, Aidan 9,
Ashlyn 7, & Kian 13mos. We’ve homeschooled from the beginning, but
after 4 years of relaxed school-at-home, we’ve got issues. Somehow I
can take anything my kids are interested in and make it boring.
Mention a favorite game might have educational value, and they never
touch it again. Ask them to sit and do spelling or math, you know
the real important stuff ;), I get arguments and/or tears. This
isn’t what I envisioned when I decided to educate my children at
home.

So we just recently moved from a state with yearly testing to a
state that has very few restrictions, and I’m thinking we should try
unschooling. I discounted it in the past as a really nice theory,
but something that wouldn’t work for my family. I guess I didn’t
really believe that my kids would learn what they needed by
unschooling. After reading several personal stories and lurking on
this list, I now realize that my idea of what my kids should be
learning is a little skewed and my assumption that unschooling was
just about education was completely off the mark. We’re talking
total lifestyle change here! I don’t have to only stop controlling
their education, I need to stop trying to control them!

So my problem is how do you just suddenly let go and TRUST that
you’re doing the right thing and the kids will learn what they need?
What should I be doing with myself? Should I be right there with
them all day long while they’re playing? Should I encourage them to
watch a show with me or offer to read to them or play math games?
For instance, they’ve been cooped up in my daughter’s room since
yesterday playing barbies, only coming out occasionally to get a
snack or feed the pets. I can’t go in there because the baby likes
to eat all those great barbie accessories, but I feel so guilty just
hanging out, surfing the net. I’m really not sure they want me in
there anyway. What if they only want to play barbies and never show
an interest in the learning they’ll need to get into college some
day (provided they want to go to college)? Please help, I feel like
I’m on the verge of an anxiety attack! (I’m only half joking. ;-))

***

First thing is don’t do anything suddenly. Except maybe dropping the
textbook/workbook/’school day’ stuff. That can go away and it can
be ‘vacation time’. All the rest of the control stuff (food,
bedtime, etc) needs to go slowly for everyone’s sake or it’ll get
really confusing and frustrating. Instead of an “okay there are no
more rules” pronouncement, just say Yes a whole lot more – “Can we
stay up to watch one more show? Yes” “Can I have another freeze pop?
Yes” and so on. Take a breath or two and think before answering No
to anything (except maybe “No, don’t use the baby as a speed bump”
lol)

“What they need”? What *they* need or what the school system (which
is playing in your head) says they need? Those are usually different
things. The school system tapes say “They have to learn
multiplication at age 8 and reading by age 6 and…” Reality is that
those are tools to reach a goal not an end in themselves – which is
the way school is – you learn multiplication or reading because
someone else says so, not because you have a real life need for it
at the time. Do you go out and pound a dozen nails every day “just
in case” you need to do a bit of carpentry in 10 years? You’ve
probably got plenty of other stuff to do I’m sure – stuff that is
real and now and important to *you*.

What to do with yourself: definitely spend some time with the kids.
Be involved with them sometimes. Be nearby sometimes – maybe read or
whatever in the big comfy chair while they’re sprawled around the
living room watching Spongebob or snakes or Unwrapped or whatever.
Also spend time for yourself – get out the knitting or bonsai trees
or the bagpipes or whatever – something you’ve put aside maybe or
something you’ve wanted to explore for yourself.

Live as though every day were vacation.

> What if they only want to play barbies
hmm fashion design, interior design, graphics, cosmetology,
screenwriting (soap operas for sure), and so on are all potential
directions that a love of barbies could go (and there are probably
zillions more. Get them barbie magazines. Find barbie websites for
them. And so on. barbie collectibles bring big bucks on ebay
sometimes. Oh and don’t forget that sewing might be in there when
they want to expand the wardrobes and possibly carpentry (to make
miniature furnishings and such)…there’s a whole world all
connected to barbie (where is malibu and why is malibu barbie so tan
and won’t she get skin cancer and what is in sunscreen and ….) Be
prepared for lots of questions that you don’t know the answers to
(there’s no answer key to living life). Be willing to say I have no
idea but we can look it up.

> and never show
> an interest in the learning they’ll need to get into college some
> day (provided they want to go to college)?
And you’re assuming their life for them a decade or more in advance.
Ten years ago would you have known that you’d be living where you
are with a nice passel of kids? Do you know for sure what they’ll
ned to know 10 years from now? Could you have imagined surfing the
Internet when you were their age? Computer skills are critical
today – and I graduated high school before the IBM PC was invented
and when I graduated college, I got a “top of the line personal
computer” as a gift – it was a Commodore 64! My college degree is in
Information Systems. Guess what I learned? Punch cards and IBM
Assembly language and Pascal and COBOL. Virtually NONE of what I
took in *college* has any relation to my current career. DH waited a
full decade after high school to consider college and choose to
leave a 5 figure salary to pursue something he was passionate about
via a college degree (that’s where the resources he wanted were
lumped so that’s where he went). Now he’s a full time at home Dad,
by choice. He uses his degree on occasion. If you had asked him when
he graduated high school if he’d ever have a college degree he’d
have laughed at you. He got his high paying high tech job(s) without
so much as an ITT Tech certificate. The skills that got him those
jobs were those he learned *outside of school*.

If you spend all your time now worrying about 10 years from now,
pretty soon it will BE 10 years from now and you’ll have missed all
the now.

***

> All the rest of the control stuff (food,
> bedtime, etc) needs to go slowly for everyone’s sake or it’ll get
> really confusing and frustrating. Instead of an “okay there are no
> more rules” pronouncement, just say Yes a whole lot more

This is something that my hubby and I both need to work on. I’m
usually pretty relaxed about stuff, but sometimes I say “no” for no
good reason, because I don’t want to be bothered at that moment. :-(
Then the kids start to argue with me and their dad gets upset
because they don’t “respect” us and before you know it we’re all
upset.

> Be involved with them sometimes. Be nearby sometimes – maybe read
or
> whatever in the big comfy chair while they’re sprawled around the
> living room watching Spongebob or snakes or Unwrapped or whatever.

So, basically just be available right?

> Also spend time for yourself -

Does this mean I no longer have an excuse for the dirty dishes in
the sink?

> Be
> prepared for lots of questions that you don’t know the answers to
> (there’s no answer key to living life). Be willing to say I have
no
> idea but we can look it up.

See, this is part of the reason I’m looking for another way to do
things. The kids aren’t asking as many questions as they used to. I
know it’s my fault because I was always trying to turn every
question they had into some kind of a lesson. So I’ve backed off and
I’m hoping they’ll start asking again. How do I handle it when they
do ask? Just give a simple, strait-forward answer, then asking them
if they’d like to learn more?

***

It’s hard to be patient, believe me, especially when you’re new to
this. My dd will be 14 next month, this was her first year out of
school. She’s been deschooling and healing for over a year.

Do NOT ask if they’d like to learn more! Just answer their questions
and let it go! Less is more.

***

Put all those books on a shelf – some of them might be handy
references for answering questions you don’t know the answers to
(but I’m betting in about a year they’ll be all dusty and ready to
go up onto ebay). If any of them really makes you get nervous
repeatedly, get rid of it fast. I gave away a few things I had
accumulated when DS was a baby “just in case” (like 100EZ lessons -
hey I found it on sale brand new for 30% off!lol) to our homeschool
group’s lending library. I figure someone might want to look at it
before buying for themselves (and maybe they’ll look at it and
decide not to buy any reading lessons at all lol).
>
>
> This is something that my hubby and I both need to work on. I’m
> usually pretty relaxed about stuff, but sometimes I say “no” for
>no
> good reason, because I don’t want to be bothered at that moment.
> Then the kids start to argue with me and their dad gets upset
> because they don’t “respect” us and before you know it we’re all
> upset.
That’s an excellent start at it – recognizing that sometimes you say
no simply for your own convenience. If DS asks and I say No, it’s
usually because I just don’t want to do that. And that’s okay – I’ll
think about it, maybe ask a couple questions to define exactly what
it is he wants my participation to be, and decide if it is something
I am willing to do. Since No is considered and not constant
(sometimes I play, sometimes not, it depends on many factors,
including things like if he’s asking me to play something long like
Monopoly or Risk at 10 pm).
>

> So, basically just be available right?
Exactly – think about how you and DH lived before kids. You didn’t
hover over each other but you probably hung out together. I remember
curling up on the bed in the spare room to read while DH played
computer games on the computer in there.

> Does this mean I no longer have an excuse for the dirty dishes in
> the sink?
LOL – usually DH does the dishes at our house (he’s home, I’m at
work) but sometimes I’ll do them. I make sure we’ve got the dish
soap I like (the orange oil scented ones) and I’ll treat it *as* a
treat – my guys will usually head off to play somewhere and I get
some quiet and I get to look out the back window and think long slow
thoughts. Sometimes I’ll even use the time to pray if there’s
something I need to really spend time praying on. Sometimes just
seeing the residue on the dishes can remind me of things
like “that’s the leftovers of DH’s birthday cake – that was a nice
party – I’m so glad to have him…” or “boy that chili was spicy!”
or “I’m glad we had company over for pizza the other day”. Sort of
triggers to being thankful instead of seeing it as a chore.

> See, this is part of the reason I’m looking for another way to do
> things. The kids aren’t asking as many questions as they used to.
>I
> know it’s my fault because I was always trying to turn every
> question they had into some kind of a lesson. So I’ve backed off
>and
> I’m hoping they’ll start asking again. How do I handle it when
>they
> do ask? Just give a simple, strait-forward answer, then asking
>them
> if they’d like to learn more?
>
KISS lol “Keep it simple Stacey” If they want to know more, they’ll
ask more. If the same types of questions keep coming up (for
instance, my DS kept asking why it’s called… a window, a door, a
ceiling, a pillow, an armada, etc), find resources they can use – I
found a cool website that gives the etymology of hundreds of words
(you can search specifically or hit the first letter and scroll
through the list) and I bookmarked it on DS’ computer so he can
check stuff at will – he’s somewhat independent from me (as
independent as he chooses – he can look it up, he can ask me if I
know, he can ask me to look it up). If you keep getting questions
about spiders, get a good field guide to spiders or bookmark a
website (or both).

***

> So my problem is how do you just suddenly let go and TRUST that
> you’re doing the right thing and the kids will learn what they need?

Start saying yes more and no less. It’s something you have to
deschool out of yourself as much as deschooling your kids.

> What should I be doing with myself?

I don’t know. What are your passions? Seriously, your kids need to
see you involved in your passions as much as you need to see them
involved in their passions.

>Should I be right there with
> them all day long while they’re playing?

Sure. Or as they want. Let them get all the schooly stuff out of
their systems. Your baby will be older then and you will be more
relaxed. You can also play with them when the baby is napping or
after the baby has gone down for the evening (if you have such a
critter ;) )

>Should I encourage them to
> watch a show with me or offer to read to them or play math games?

If they like math games. We don’t have any math games in our house,
but we do have games that one needs at least some math to do
(Monopoly, Life, etc.) We don’t play them to learn math. We play
games because *games* are fun. If they aren’t fun then it is work.
I’m not discounting that a math game can’t be fun, just that they
aren’t necessary to unschool. Invite them into your world. If you
have a show that interests you invite them to watch with you. Want to
go somewhere that sounds fun, ask if they would like to join you.
Starting a new hobby or craft? Maybe they would be interested as
well. On the other hand, be involved in their world as well. Help
them create new barbie fashions from their outgrown or tattered
clothes (or scraps of cloth or learn to knit some). Help them make
dioramas for barbie adventures. Have them outfit Barbie and all her
friends for an outdoor adventure and take them outin the yard(sans all
the itty bitty pieces that fall off easily and get chewed up by lawn
mowers).

> I’m really not sure they want me in
> there anyway.

Might not right now if they associate you with schooling and being a
funsucker :-D That will change as they trust that you aren’t going to
turn every activity into a “learning experience” In that time you have
to trust that they will learn through playing and exploring. What
wonderful creativity they must have if they can play constantly with
their dolls and not be bored! Coming up for fresh air may happen in a
time near you.

>What if they only want to play barbies and never show
> an interest in the learning they’ll need to get into college some
> day (provided they want to go to college)?

Go rent the movie Big with Tom Hanks (It’s been playing on AMC and
Encore this month). Seriously, this is a great unschooling movie.
Here’s a “kid” who looks 30 and he knows toys best. He gets a job
designing and testing toys. My brother would have been great at a job
like that! No college education, no high school education for that
matter. Just a kid who “grew up” too fast. (There are adult
situations in this movie)

Please help, I feel like
> I’m on the verge of an anxiety attack! (I’m only half joking. ;-))
>

Breathe in *and* out. Repeat. It’s necessary. :) Baby steps and
remember, it doesn’t have to look like school to mean something in
life!

***

“So my problem is how do you just suddenly let go and TRUST that
you’re doing the right thing and the kids will learn what they need?”

By reading about natural learning, by talking with other unschoolers,
by meeting up with other unschoolers and by studying human development
and history, which shows exactly how humans learned just fine without
schooling.:)
Look deeply at your children and see them for who-they-are at this
very moment. See them as perfect and whole and unfolding in their own
time. You can poke and prod at the blossom, but you won’t make it
unfold any faster or better, you’ll only do damage. You’ve seen that
damage, now you have an opportunity to simply create a wonderful
environment for them to blossom in their own way and time. So create
that wonderful environment (I’m sure many of those parts are already
in place) and get out of their way!!:)

“What should I be doing with myself?”

Getting a life!!;)
Seriously, if your children are your entire focus, that’s not a great
example to them of living the life of your dreams. They are the dream,
but what did you dream about before children? After they’re raised?
Who are you really and what are YOUR passions? What part of you
decided you aren’t worthy of following your own dreams? (I’m only
guessing here, could be totally off the mark).

What things make you happy? What activities make you feel fulfilled
and joyous? DO those things and as you happily pursue those things,
you may find yourself suddenly surrounded by interested children. It’s
a much nicer way to share learning with them. Let them come and go as
they choose.

“Should I be right there with
them all day long while they’re playing?”

Yes and NO.
They don’t need you there constantly monitering them. Let their
imaginations and ideas flow in their own way. Be available, join in
when they need you, but give them time and space. Take them platters
of food, check in to see that they’re doing ok, make the environment
conducive to play by cleaning up after them if that helps.

Should I encourage them to
watch a show with me or offer to read to them or play math games?”

Only if it sounds like fun, just because it’s fun…not to teach them
anything. Here’s a REALLY great quote I came across as I was pulling
bits for one of my talks in Albuquerque next month:
“There is this cultural myth that ‘homeschoolers make cookies to teach
math’. I don’t know what other people do, but here in my house, as
unschoolers, we make cookies to make cookies, and if necessary we use
math to help us make more cookies. Doing activities in order to learn
specific schoolish stuff is backwards prioritizing. We learn or
practice skills in order to facilitate the fun activities!”

I believe that was from Robyn Coburn.
Your focus still needs to shift a bit. Away from how to get certain
knowledge into them and towards living a rich, full life. Interesting
lives naturally encompass a lot of learning and stimulate plenty of
reasons to write/compute/draw/research.

The focus is on a life lived well. What kind of things make for a good
life? What do you need to change in order to feel that all of your
lives are about living to the fullest? Does your family find some
fascination with Brazil or mountains or snakes or color? Bring those
elements into your life with abandon!! Each person will have their own
ideas about what good living encompasses, but there will also be
things that you seek as a family. It’s a give and take, ebb and flow
and it works best with adults that are creative, interesting and
mainly CURIOUS!!

If you aren’t those things…it’s ok. You can reclaim those character
traits.:) Just recognize that the focus is entirely different for
unschoolers. We aren’t playing games to help the kids learn math,
we’re playing games because it’s fun. We learn constantly, because
that’s what humans are born to do.

***

What are some other books you’d suggest?

-=-=-

Parenting a Free Child, An Unschooled Life by Rue Kream

-=-=-=

You are so right. I used to work as a dog trainer, but I had put
that on hold when I decided to homeschool. I also have a large
collection of books sitting on my shelf that I haven’t had the time
to read yet and tons of sewing projects just waiting to be started.
It’s not that I couldn’t do my sewing or reading, but I always felt
guilty, like I should be doing more important things with the kids.

-=-=-=-

Consider raising a guide dog puppy.

It’s hard to let go, but it’s something you can do as a family, and it
won’t interfere, but rather ADD, to your homeschooling experience. We
raised Ryan, a vizsla through SouthEastern Guide Dogs, last year—it
was GREAT!

-=-=-=-

Did I mention I really dislike cleaning and especially cleaning up
my kids’ rooms? Honestly, I’m afraid that if I always clean up after
them, then they won’t learn to clean up after themselves. For
instance, I lived with my father-in-law while my husband was
stationed in Korea. He very rarely cleaned up after himself. Every
morning he left toast crumbs and spilled coffee on the counter. He
vacuumed his room one time during the 18 months I lived there. His
mother always took care of him, then his wife & once she left, I
moved in to help him out. Now he’s living with his mom again, so he
still doesn’t have to clean. My husband is a little better than his
dad, but his cleaning is limited to only his things. My mother-in-
law thought it was easier to pick up after him than to get him to do
it himself. I don’t want my children, especially my son, to think
cleaning is somebody else’s job. I think I’m going to have a hard
time dealing with the chore issue.

-=-=-

Neither your husband nor his father was unschooled. Nor were they
mindfully parented. DROP you what you *think* will happen. Change your
attitude about chores. THAT will influence how your children view
housework. There are a slew of us out here that don’t force chores and
yet have children who joyfully help out and clean and keep the house
neat.

***

As to the cleaning up issue…
Children that grow up with the attitude of dependency on another
person to clean up for them, are usually those that aren’t allowed to
help in their own way. What I’ve discovered (as I released my chores
issues over the years) is that children WANT to help, they WANT to be
a part of day to day activities. They just don’t always want to do it
the way an adult wants them to do it!!

They have their own way of doing things and helping, we need to honor
that. Let them help even if it means that the job isn’t done very
well. Clean up after them because you’re providing a new canvas for
creative explorations. What if you had a small Einstein or Picasso in
your care? Would it be important to help them clean up so they could
get on with the really important work of becoming the creative
geniuses they were born to be? Of course it would!

Children don’t learn dependency by having someone help them clean
up(or cleaning up for them), they learn that you are willing to place
your relationship with them above stuff. As they dabble in and out of
helping you, they WILL grow into reponsibility, just as they learn
everything else.

If they can learn to read in their own time and way, then they can
learn to clean in their own time and way too. And the best part? They
will be helping you because it’s in their hearts, because they CARE,
not because some authority figure told them to.

I ask my kids for help too…nothing wrong with being honest about
your needs (depending on age and ability of child of course).

When I’m tired and cleaning up another mess, sometimes I chant to
myself “I’m helping my creative geniuses, I’m helping my creative
geniuses” or something similar. And sometimes I feel like the
scribbles on the walls and the broken/lost items or chocolate blobs on
the floor with NEVER end!! Then I look at my teens and realize that
the only “mess” I really encounter with them is some dishes (yep, they
even choose to keep their rooms clean, all on their own) and that it
doesn’t last forever. I remind myself to enjoy these messes, because
*I* chose to have them.

I chose to have children and children are most inconvenient, messy and
busy individuals. I chose that. Their messes are a sign that they are
healthy, happy, learning and ALIVE!! I try to be thankful for those
messes (it doesn’t always translate into gratitude, but a shift in
thinking helps a LOT).

Sierra does not like cleaning up her room. I usually clean it for her
(which is an amazing task because she and Jalen can trash it fairly
quick) by myself. She dabbles in and out of helping sometimes, but if
it’s really bad, she just can’t cope with it.

The result? A child that LOVES to do dishes, loves cooking with me,
setting the table, even folding laundry when she sees me doing it.
She’s only 9 years old, she does more than I ever did at that age. But
I don’t make an issue out of what she doen’t do, so she’s more willing
to help in other areas. She really appreciates the gift of a clean
room. Cleaning up for my kids has fostered better relationships all
the way around.

***

**When I’m tired and cleaning up another mess, sometimes I chant to
myself “I’m helping my creative geniuses, I’m helping my creative
geniuses” or something similar. **

This actually makes a lot of sense to me.

I have spent time visiting an out of state friend who is very
compulsive about cleaning. This is tolerable for a short afternoon
visit, but when we stay over at her place it is quite stressful. For
me to constantly remember not to take off my shoes, not to set a book
down or a glass down when I am done with it takes a small, but
significant, mental effort that I have to exert the entire time that I
am there.

I figure a kid who had to try to remember to keep tidiness rules in
mind at all times has less room in his mind for relaxed,
whole-hearted, flowing play. I assume that being tense and vigilant
will interfere with creativity.

***

“Just give a simple, strait-forward answer, then asking them
if they’d like to learn more?”

I’d start with just the simple, straight-forward answer for now.:)
As they learn to trust you, you can add a bit, or see if they want to
look it up. Let them give you cues though. That doesn’t mean you need
to be afraid to share information, but doing it just because you’re
excited rather than trying to “teach” is going to create a very
different atmosphere.

Keep it simple as the trust is rebuilt. Try some strewing to calm your
fears….but let things swirl up naturally.

I Hate Homeschooling!

lighttent-productshot-strobist-969982-lI’ve been homeschooling my 9 year old ds for 2 years. I’ve done the
traditional workbooks method, I’ve done the “relaxed” homeschooling
method, I’ve been part of a Independent Study Program through our
church which required strict reports of curriculum completed, report
cards, etc., and most recently, the last 3-4 months, have done
Unschooling… My son, obviously, prefers the unschooling to any of
the other methods, but has been attached at the hip to his computer
from 8:00 a.m. until bedtime, which includes an hour or two of PS-2
with his Dad… We live on a beautiful 10 acre property and have tons
of stuff available for him to do, yet, he insists on sitting inside
staring at the computer. We didn’t put limitations on usage, allowed
him to eat his meals there, etc. The problem with all of this is that
he wanted everyone to wait on him hand and foot…but he wasn’t
helping anyone else with anything. We were trying to incorporate
the “family helping each other out” thing, like I’ve read many times
on this board, you know, where we just pick up his things along with
our own junk, hoping he gets the idea…without any success…just a
zombie face staring at a computer game. If we suggest something, like
that Dad & I are going for a walk, wanna come? The answer is usually
no. Now, granted, I think the games are educational, Star Wars
Gallactic Battlegrounds and Civilization III, but his interest in
everything else has disappeared. I’ve tried grabbing things he
mentions and turning them into a learning experience, which, we did
have an awesome adventure studying fungi on our property…but for
the most part, even that has stopped. He has lost interest in most of
his toys, has quit sports, and since we are pretty isolated, has lost
all of his “schooled” friends, since he doesn’t attend any longer.

I am so frustrated! We tried going back to the “Relaxed” method today
only to have a HUGE argument, a tantrum, and hurt feelings all the
way around…

Please, Please, Please, someone give me some suggestions! He loves
hands-on things, and field trips, but, frankly, we can’t afford to be
doing this type of stuff every day!!

***

how long has he been away from the “schooly” things? how long has he been
given the freedom to do with his day as he wishes? I’ll repost what I wrote
a few days ago on the group and maybe that will help you gage just how long
it may be before he wants to do more than play video games all day.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
so we’ve been unschooling now since December 2005 (not very long)… did
school-at-home for the first few months of homeschooling starting in
September 2005… DD was in PS from K-3. anyhow, the rule of thumb is one
month deschooling for every year in PS… all this time I’ve been pretty
much letting her do whatever… and she’s been anti-book/anti-library this
whole time… today in the car on the way to church my DD starts talking
about the sign-language she knows and we talked a bit about it and I said I
could probably find some charts on the internet for her and she said “we
could go to the library to get a book about it… then I could talk to
people who know sign-language.”

it was such a cool moment because it was all her… I didn’t do a thing to
bring this conversation or idea on. so as I was thinking about it I
realized that it’s been about as many months as years as she was in PS…
and she’s now pursuing interests beyond tv/video games 24/7 (though… don’t
get me wrong… I have no problems with this 24/7)… it’s just cool to see
her want to pursue an interest and an interest that I had no idea she had.
:)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I seriously didn’t think the constant video game and TV would end… but
since allowing her the freedom (and yes, she didn’t want to do much around
the house either or clean her room… but she is beginning to help out more
and has just finished reorganizing her room on her own). My DD is 9, too.

We went to a fishing clinic for our 4H group today and my DD fished and
talked to the instructor for about an hour longer than any of the other kids
He was happy to stay late just to help my DD. And she was totally
enjoying herself.

I know the frustration… but please just breath and give it some more time.
It will be so worth it… and I can already tell this and we’ve only been
unschooling since Dec. There are unschoolers here who have been living this
lifestyle for years! Trust, just trust… even when you don’t see… trust.

***

My best suggestion is to let your son have a summer vacation from
school stuff and school thinking and spend some time reading the
posts here.

For me, becoming an unschooling parent required me to change my way
of looking at education and learning. It was more than just the
absence of a curriculim. It’s not easy to shift your way of looking
at something after thinking a certain way your whole life.
I’ve found that “getting unschooling” is a mindset that had to start
with me. It’s definitely an ongoing journey (at least for me it is)
but I’ve found out a lot about myself in the process.

***
We’ve been homeschooling 4+ years. We’ve jumped around
methodologies too. By far, our most favorite times have been when I
stop looking at things through schoolish filters and just live
joyfully with my family. Now, we’ve done this before and after a
time, I got to the point (usually egged on by well-meaning
homeschool friends who don’t believe in unschooling) where I would
decide to organize us right back into a traditional method of
schoolwork. Now, this time I have ZERO intention of allowing that
to happen. Really! I’m making an effort at finding unschooling
friends and participating on unschooling groups so if those doubts
start creeping in, I can toss them right out again. However, my
children can’t really trust me since I’ve said these things before.
We’ve been unschooling for just a few months I guess, and I believe
my children are just trying to wait me out. Neither of them want to
do anything that even remotely resembles schoolwork. I believe they
are just waiting for me to change my mind so they are taking
advantage of every moment of freedom they can get. They were
hesitant to mention interests because they believed I’d jump in and
turn their interests into schoolwork. That’s a sure-fire way to
kill their joy.

Perhaps you might reconsider what you think is learning. I don’t
think you need to do anything special to turn something into a
learning experience. Our children are learning the way they want.
You can ask if he wants to do something, but don’t take over because
it then becomes your thing rather than his thing. Also, do you
spend any time with him doing the things he likes? You mentioned
his dad plays games with him sometimes. How about asking him to
share his games with you? Find out why he likes them so much. Maybe
if you share in his interests, he might share some of your interests
in return. As for helping out, I tell my children when I’m planning
some big cleaning and we turn on music and work together. They know
they don’t have to do it, but they are always eager to help. They
especially love to clean the windows, dust the furniture and vacuum
the carpets. They also love putting laundry into the wash though
they don’t like folding it afterwards. But since we do it as a
family with each person folding his/her own things, it gets done
very quickly. Then we do something fun together. After we clean
the living room, for example, we love to play Nintendo because
everything is so tidy and there’s plenty of room for us to lounge
around.

***

First you have to stop thinking of everything in terms of educational
merit. Everything has merit, whether it is video games, PS2, or a book.
Your son needs to trust that everything he does isn’t going to be turned
into an educational moment. That’s when he will start trusting you with
going for a walk or open up with the things he wants to do outside of
computers and video games. Are you doing the things that you want to do or
are you standing waiting to serve him? What message is that sending to your
son? Get involved in your own interests, create, read, garden, bake, knit,
whatever it is that is your passion. Unschool yourself!

***

Stop trying to turn everything into a learning experience. It’s kind
of like he’s a fish who has been ‘hooked’ before so now anything
that resembles “bait” makes him leery. So, rather than express
interest in something (which he’s experienced gets taken and turned
into a “hook”) he’s just sticking to the things that haven’t, in his
experience, been turned into “learning experiences” – they’re
still “just fun” for him – and that’s video and computer gaming.
It’s going to take a time of you backing off entirely and just
letting things “lie fallow” for a time. He needs to re-learn to
trust that when you say “Hey there’s a cool orange fungus with
yellow spots over here” that he can go look and enjoy it rather than
getting a lesson on mycology and biology and “find 3 other species
of fungus that live in this environment” and all that “educational”
stuff. By taking things he mentions and making learning experiences,
you’ve been taking away his ‘ownership’ of the thought, event,
topic. Basically, hanging back until he says something then jumping
back out in front to “lead” him. Let him lead – your job is to ease
the path he wants to take, not make the path for him to take.

***

A great book for you to read is How Children Fail by John Holt. I am
reading it now ( last pages) and it is awesome.

***

My dd is a devotee of the xbox 360/pc game “obivion”, a role playing
game with 500 plus hours of gameplay. I know how you feel. We’ve
worked hard to strike a balance. The game is very educational, and
she’s learning alot from it, but we have put some limits (generous
ones) on it out of necessity.

She has to keep up with her few chores, break for meals, and get some
exercise. She was getting cranky and tired from all the sitting
around, and I was concerned it would negatively impact her health.

I like to let the kids make their own decisions, but when it impacts
health or family harmony, I feel it’s time to come to a compromise.

***
Games need not be educational for someone to learn something from it. And
who says that we have to learn anyway. Why call it a game if it has an
alterior motive to teach? :)

***

If you saw another adult getting tired and cranky because of intense
concentration to something what would you do? You would probably say, “Hey,
you are looking really stressed over that. I’m worried about you. Why not
take a break for a few minutes and come sit outside with me and have some
lemonade.” But with adults they always have the option of saying no. Do
you extend that same courtesy to your child? When children have these sorts
of limits they don’t learn to trust you. “Because I am limited I have to
get in every second I can of this thing because I know it will eventually be
taken away from me.” Your child is not going to die in front of the xbox.
When she learns that you trust her she will release the controls and allow
herself to be intrested in other things and know that the xbox is there for
her to use when she wants it, not when she’s allowed to have it.

Don’t sit around waiting for your daughter to come to you and say, “I’m
finished with the xbox now. Let’s go do something else.” Unschool yourself
(my recurrent theme of the day :) ) and your child will see that the world
doesn’t revolve around the xbox (although for some children it does and they
go on to work in Canada for a multi-billion dollar company that creates new
games for xbox – a friend of mine did that LOL!) If you are waiting for her
to get a new interest the message she is getting is that the world does
revolve around the xbox. Go live your life and let her live hers, but
invite her into your life, just don’t *expect* her to join you.

***

No, I don’t, and it would be irresonsible of me to do so. Children
are not tiny adults, and should not be treated as such. It does
them a disservice to do so. I would not let my daughter spend 12
hours a day in front of a video game any more than I’d let her eat
an entire box of cookies each night for dinner, or not bathe or
brush her teeth.

It is my job as a parent to make sure my children are healthy and
happy. Although some kids might think an all day video-game, cookie
eating, bath-free world would be fabulous, as a parent we know that
would lead to illness in the short term, obesity in the long term.
Obvsiously that’s an extreme example, but it makes the point.

Children need parents for a reason, and sometimes, that reason is to
tell them “no” untill they are mature enough to make healthy,
reasonable, responsible decisions themselves. Unschooling doesn’t
mean un-parenting.

***

You can try. You can do your best. However, you can’t MAKE your
child be healthy or happy.

My daughter’s personality is such that she is often worried, anxious,
and unhappy. Sometimes I do feel like a failure because of this, but
when I really think about it, I do realize that I don’t have control
of her emotions. I try to help, of course, and I try to find things
that she will like and be happy about. But I can’t fix everything.

***

You are right. Children are not tiny adults which means that they shouldn’t
have the responsibilities of being adults. That doesn’t mean that they
shouldn’t be given the same courtesy as adults.

You are making that assumption based on children that are not unschooled.
If your child has control over what s/he eats, drinks, plays, learns, when
she sleeps and even bathes, then video games, cookies and filth won’t seem
like the creme de la creme of childhood. And I have been known to tell both
my co-parent and my children, “Hmmm. Smells like you could use a bath.”
The rebuttal is usually, “Yeah. You’re right.” or “I’ll take one before I
go to bed.” It’s ok to point out the obvious to someone who has BO that is
smelling up everyone’s space. :) If a child knows that they *can* eat
cookies for dinner they will usually choose to not. And cookies aren’t all
bad. Read the nutritional label. Eating a box of cookies isn’t going to
cause a child illness and knowing that all food is ok to eat and that they
aren’t going to be shamed for eating it will allow a child to explore other
foods and to *choose* other foods.

Trust me, 3 years ago I didn’t believe it either.

***

I don’t like extreme examples because they don’t help
me with my day-to-day non-extreme problems.

It is my understanding that most of the kids of folks
on this list bathe often enough to be smell-free, eat
reasonable diets and do not play video-games 24×7.
They got there without top-down “thou shalt not”
rules. I come here to read about how these things work
in real families.

***

I need to share here a moment. My nearly 15 year old son, Jessy,
just spent a month with his adult brothers and their wives in
California.

My son has been homeschooled for five years , unschooled for about
half of that time and radically unschooled for just over a year.

My sons and dil all commented to me on my 14 years olds ability to
self direct.

He plays video games, reads a magazine, runs outside with the dog,
plays with the baby, draws, writes and eats at his leisure. He does
these things according to his patterns and desire for certain
information and stimulation. It is not artificial. He does not play
video games for 24 hours straight because he does not want to.
Not that in getting a new game he has not played 24 hours straight.
Sometimes that what it takes to get the information he needs.

I had to wait till I was a grown up to learn how to self direct. I
sometimes still have trouble. But my kids are learning how to direct
and choose their joy

***

I’d feel under a lot of pressure if I believed the same things as
you. I respect your right to parent the way you choose, but being
on an unschooling group and making those announcements so solidly as
if they are fact are rather funny. I must respectfully disagree
with all of your theories. My kids have no limits on video games,
tv, bedtime, food, etc. and they aren’t obsessive about any of
them. We do have days where spend several hours playing a video
game. It’s fun!! I’m currently working on Paper Mario and enjoying
myself. But we also have days where we just aren’t in the mood so
we don’t even turn on the Nintendo.

No, children are not tiny adults and I’m not treating them that
way. I do not expect them to work, pay rent, pay taxes, etc. Those
are adult kinds of things. I believe children should have the
freedom to BE children as this will be the only time in their lives
that they can truly be children. I get sad when I hear adults tell
children to grow up, act their age, get over it and learn life’s not
fair, etc. My children are precious people with real feelings,
opinions, likes and dislikes. That part is just like adults. And I
think that was what was meant in the previous post you responded
to. I have no desire to control my children’s lives. They are not
my slaves nor am I the dictator. How can I truly know what will
make them happy? I don’t even know what makes ME happy sometimes!

I think you’re looking at extremes and need to find more middle
ground if you’re choosing to look into unschooling. Just for the
record, I am not a negligent parent even though your definition may
say so. (that whole unparenting doesn’t equal unschooling) I am
finding there isn’t a difference between unschooling and parenting
and life. Unschooling isn’t about academics and education for our
family. It’s our entire attitude, philosophy and feelings about
Life and everything we do and say. :)

***

the unparenting view of unschooling is very damaging…
not only to us as unschoolers but to other’s who choose to keep that view of
unschooling going…. as it keeps ignorance of the truth from coming to
light.

parenting is not a job… it is a gift to us to… and should be a
respectful relationship between adult and child to facilitate their own
individualism… so they will know that who they are is enough. that no
more or no less of them is required to be accepted into the world in which
they choose to live… that their passions are just as important as ours…
and that mistakes can be made and they will still be loved and accepted
without feeling that they’ve somehow become lesser people because of those
mistakes.

we create our own joy… we cannot and should not be responsible for “fixing
everyone else… that’s called co-dependency… our goal should be
inter-dependency, that we can rely on each other as a community but not
expect that others are responsible for our feelings and growth.

***

It sounds to me like your son is still deschooling. He’s taking time
to get as far away from schoolwork as he can. Kids often immerse themselves in
TV, computer or video games during this time. If they think the unschooling
“break” can end at any time when mom panics, then they’re likely to do nothing
but those things while they’ve got the chance.

Again, it will take time for you all to transition and understand this new and
different way of relating to one another. It will help if you rephrase your
interactions with him in your own head. If you percieve it as waiting on him
hand and foot, then you’re labelling him as lazy or demanding in your own mind.
Try viewing it from another perspective and see if it might ring equally as
true. My own kids are often completely involved in something they are passionate
about. I’ll often bring them food or grab up their dishes. They’re not lazy,
they’re focussed and involved and engaged. At other times, when their focus is
less pinpoint, they will gladly help out in various ways.

Um no. He’s an active player in whatever game he’s playing. He’s concentrating
on something that’s important to him. I’m sure I must sometimes look like a
zombie when I’m reading and processing my email lists. Thankfully my family
doesn’t see me in this way. Just because you can’t see into his brain doesn’t
mean it’s not busy thinking. :o)

It’s all educational. Everything. It all counts. The world is just full of
learning. That’s at the core of unschooling.

***

I don’t think anyone here is advocating unparenting. If anything, unschooling is
about being more involved and aware of your children. Aware of their likes and
dislikes, strengths and challenges, interests and aversions, passions and fears.
It’s about partnering with our children as they navigate through the many
choices they’ll face in this world rather than standing as a barrier between
them and what they want to explore.

It seems like you’re assuming that this is the choice most children would make
if given the chance. What people here are saying is that we’ve found that not to
be true. Our children were given the freedom to regulate their eating, sleeping
and interests. What we’ve found is that kids with choices do not automatically
choose the worst possible option. Sure sometimes there’s a cookie for breakfast
or a skipped bath or three, but more times there are good choices and a healthy,
happy kid.

***

I wanted to emphasize Mary’s point here – because we see this
assumption made over and over – that kids will choose what is not
good for them and, therefore, a parent’s job is to set limits to make
sure they do what is good for them. Well, yes, just like adults, kids
WILL sometimes choose what is not good for them. Do WE always do what
we know is good for us?

Why shouldn’t parents control their children’s lives, making sure
they only do what the parents think is “good for them?”

It is because the “choosing” is really important in the child’s
psychological development, both individually, to move toward self-
actualization in his/her own life, and socially, to function as a
valuable member of a democratic society. And if a person can’t make
“real” choices, then his/her so-called freedom is not real. It is a
delusion to believe you are free, if your choices are limited to
those that someone else has determined are healthy for you.

We see too many people, these days, willing to give up their own
freedoms, in exchange for protection or security or even just for
convenience. A society composed of compliant people is orderly, and,
for some, reassuring and comforting – this is the allure of a
dictator! Independence and liberty are messy and risky. This is as
true within a family as it is for society as a whole.

Many parenting books talk about offering children limited choices,
such as asking: “Do you want the red shirt or the blue shirt today?”
The point of these “choices” is not to give real choice, but to fake
the kid out – to give the child the illusion of having a choice. This
is done for the convenience of the parent whose motivation is to get
the child dressed quickly, usually in order to more efficiently get
out the door to school or daycare. But this kind of control over
children’s lives, carried on throughout childhood at home and at
school, often leads to dangerous levels of passivity and apathy,
unengaged teenagers who don’t think for themselves and are too easily
led by others, or to passive resistance or even active rebellion,
which we see in teenagers who flaunt their rejection of all authority
and engage in dangerous antisocial behaviors. Unschoolers are
striving for something different – our goal is raising truly free
children who will grow up to insist on thinking for themselves and
will never be easily controlled by others. Unschoolers around the
world are demonstrating that parents and kids, together, can, in
fact, set up a home environment that supports true freedom and
provides MANY options – real choices, not “fake” ones.

Unschooling parents do not abdicate parental responsibility, they do
not deprive their children of their protection and care, but they do
go far beyond most parents, now or historically, in choosing support
of freedom over parental control and convenience, as they offer real
choices in an environment that does not focus on limiting a child’s
options, but provides nearly boundless opportunity. A friend of mine
once said that unschooling can feel a lot like jumping off a cliff,
not knowing if you have wings to fly. And I think it can look just
about that foolish, from outside, too! But there are unschooled kids
soaring all over the place, these days, and all we have to do is look
at them, look at their energy and love of life and learning, watch as
they pursue their dreams with confidence and gusto, to know that John
Holt was right when he said, “Children do not need to be made to
learn to be better, told what to do or shown how. If they are given
access to enough of the world, they will see clearly enough what
things are truly important to themselves and to others, and they will
make for themselves a better path into that world than anyone else
could make for them.”*

***

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How do you “do” summer?

summer_title4_title3_17266_lI’m sure I will have more. With the unschooling philosophy of your children pursuing what
interests them, i.e. making learning and doing a natural part of life, along
with working at their own pace, how do you do your summer break? Or, how do
you stop “school” for the summer?

***
There is no noticeable difference other than the kids have more kids around to
play with. We just simply live our lives.

***

Around here we say: “Every day is Saturday. Every month is July.”

Several years ago. my nephews envied my boys during the school year
’cause they thought Cam & Dunc did nothing all year. But they pitied
them in the summer ’cause I told them that we don’t take the summer off.

Then one of them came and stayed for a week one summer.

<G>

They get it now.

Unschooling is about living as if school didn’t exist. So, what would
*you* do if school didn’t exist?

One mom, when discussing what to call her homeschool, tossed around
“Our Lady of Perpetual Vacation” ( I wish I could remember who said
that! <G>).

Since we don’t “start” school, we don’t “stop” school either! Learning
happens.

***

**You can’t stop it and it never ends!!! It’s like asking how do you
stop “life” for the summer? You can’t and why would you want to? We
take vacations from things/activities that we are forced to do or that
don’t come naturally or honor our natural rhythyms. What if you lived
your whole life like you were on vacation? What if everything you did,
you did because you chose to do it, wholeheartedly and with joy? When
would you need a break of the schoolish kind? Never! Sure, there would
be periods of rest and periods of activity but it isn’t the same as
saying “I’m on summer vacation (can do what I want) until September when
I have to resume doing things I dislike”. Its more like, “I’m tired
right now and I need to rest but as soon as my energy level is back up,
I’ll be back at it!”

***

There is no school to stop!
Our summers are far busier than the winters, we try to get out every day if only
to run to the little store for a soda. Most of our days are spent traveling,
swimming at the lake, playing with friends, going to the many local events
(Apple Blossom Festival, Mountain Heritage Craft fair, Flea markets, Farm Day,
etc.) being outside, camps (I think Emily is going to FOUR this summer!)
Camping, hanging out on the banks of the Shenendoah, we may go on a Tubing trip
this year, reading, watching movies, Strolling around Shepherdstown, WV, and
loads of other stuff. I love to get out and about and winter time makes for
much more nesting in our home although it is not very different than any other
time of the year.

***

By never starting school in the first place. :o) Our summers run the same as any
other time of year. Our activities are governed by weather, availability of
friends and resources, time, money and interest. So our day to day activities
may look different in the summer but the unschooling is still the same. I
support their interests, strew their path with new and interesting things and
know that they are learning.

***

We don’t DO summer anymore than we DO any other traditional school
break. Life doesn’t stop during the summer. We live and learn
every day of every year during our entire lifetime. The whole point
of unschooling is to learn to step away from the nonsensical method
of viewing learning as being able to happen only in certain places
(i.e. classrooms, labs, etc.) or at certain times (from Sept to May,
Monday through Friday, 8am to 3pm).

The one thing I see most newbies to unschooling misunderstand is
that life and learning happen without us pointing it out to one
another, whether to our spouses, friends, children, or whoever. New
unschoolers expect their children to choose to do schoolish things
like work through a Math textbook, study a certain time period in
History perhaps through reading regular books, set up a Science
experiment, etc. It truly helps to focus YOUR thinking away from
schoolish things. All the things we do in life can be categorized
in some manner if you speak educationlese, but one wonders WHY you
need to do that? For example, when you prepare your grocery list
and complete your shopping, do you award yourself a grade or some
other form of external reward for doing something in Home
Economics? Do you consider your Math lessons done for the day when
you balance your checkbook? Adults do not, normally, separate
everything into subjects but we sure expect that of our children.

When I first started unschooling, I had to genuinely believe that it
was OKAY that my children may never, never do anything that looks
like schoolwork. Over time, I’ve become so excited by that fact
that I now take a double-look when I do see them choosing something
that looks like schoolwork! *lol*

I may repeat this alot and it’s also for my sake, but I think
the ‘unschooling’ term is more for us parents trying to let go. I
don’t think of my kids as unschooling because they aren’t trying to
undo anything. Instead, they are living life… actually WE are
living together and that encompasses so very much if you truly stop
and marvel at it.

***

Summers look just like winters but it’s hot. (At least here in
Florida LOL!) Depending on your neighborhood or your children’s
relationships with schooled children, there might be more kids at your
house in the summer than the winter on more days than in the summer
than the winter. If you “stop unschooling” for the summer then it
would mean you would be schooling during the summer.

***

Compromise and Negotiation

kids_playing_girl_988821_lThere was actually someone who mentioned that maybe this is NOT the
right choice for us, and I am feeling somewhat rebuffed in my attempts
to get a better understanding of how this is supposed to look and work
and feel.

We have a family of 5 children, most of them too young to be left home
without supervision, so what do you do when 1 child wants to go and do
something and the others hate it? Also, what about children with
special needs? Should they be unschooled, should it be exactly the
same for them, or should it just be modified somehow?

As you can tell, I am still very ignorant of this whole process. I
did ?

***

First of all, just realize that what you’re going through is very
normal, especially for someone with many young children.

“We have a family of 5 children, most of them too young to be left home
without supervision, so what do you do when 1 child wants to go and do
something and the others hate it?”

Find someone for them to go with? Offer up something the others would
like to do after the activity? There are many, many options and we can
throw a bunch out for you to ponder. The point is to get creative and
not decide that unschooling can’t work just because you have challenges.
I have four children, and we use a lot of compromise and negotiation!:)
These days, it’s a lot easier becasue most of my children CAN be left
at home if they don’t feel like going. Kids get older, it gets easier.

“Also, what about children with
special needs? Should they be unschooled, should it be exactly the
same for them, or should it just be modified somehow?”

We ALL have special needs.:)
We ALL need unschooling/life to be modified for each of us. That’s the
whole point. Unschooling is about meeting the child’s needs and
helping them get the most out of life in their own way. It works for
every child in the same way philisophically…but how that plays out
in your home is going to look very different from mine. The philosophy
of trust and respect is the same. HOW trust and respect are put into
practice looks different from person to person.

“As you can tell, I am still very ignorant of this whole process.”

Ignorance isn’t such a bad thing!:) Unwillingness to learn is
downright evil. lol

“Please feel free to tell me to just observe if that is the better
choice.”

Some of us learn best by questioning and interacting with others. I
know it helps me. Your questions are really useful things to ponder
and I’m sure they’ll help others that aren’t willing to post. Keep on
asking…this is the good stuff!!

***

Take them with you and do something else while the one child is engaged in
his passions. I have a friend who has 4 children ages 3-14. They obviously
have different interests and are constantly on the go. While one child
takes karate the other children go outside and run in the grass or read
books or draw or she runs them down the street to a park. She has a
treasure trove of activities in their car (since they are always on the go)
from books, art supplies (mostly drawing things – crayons, books, paper),
and games. It *can* be done. It just takes a little ingenuity on your
part.

Also, what about children with
> special needs? Should they be unschooled, should it be exactly the
> same for them, or should it just be modified somehow?

HOw should it be modified? There is a list called “shine with unschooling”
on yahoogroups and there are many families on there with children that would
be categorized as having special needs by the public school system who are
shining just wonderfully. I believe that Sandra Dodd has a few articles
about unschooling the child with different needs. *All* our children have
needs, some just need a little more help, patience and time than others. My
son is high functioning autistic, but it hasn’t stopped us from allowing him
to live joyfully!

Please feel free to tell me to just observe if that is the better
> choice.

Observe, yes. Question, please. Read, always! And ponder all the things
you read here. Look at your boys and ask yourself if you are willing to
trust them to learn to trust you.

***

I have 5 kids as well. Here is what I would recommend to you starting
out.

When the kids want to do something, think long and hard before you
tell them no. Is there any possible way you can tell them yes
instead? If you have a strong feeling that you should tell them no,
ask yourself why. Is it because they could really get hurt? Is it
because someone else or something could really get hurt? Is it because
“that just isn’t what we do”? Will it really matter in a month? Will
you even remember? Unless you can come up with a real, right now
problem with what they want to do, tell them yes.

Understand that sometimes you DO have to say no, sometimes it just
works out that Joey has to come with you to the store even though he
didn’t want to. Honor that. Let him know that you realize it is a
bummer, sing a song with him, offer to let him pick the radio station,
whatever. Don’t blow off his feelings.

I would just do those two things for a couple of months….see what
happens.

***

There was actually someone who mentioned that maybe this is NOT the
right choice for us, and I am feeling somewhat rebuffed in my attempts
to get a better understanding of how this is supposed to look and work
and feel.

-=-=-

It’s not for everyone. And we’re not trying to keep you or anyone else
away form unschooling. It’s just *hard*! Not everyone’s up for the
battle.

-==–=-

We have a family of 5 children, most of them too young to be left home
without supervision, so what do you do when 1 child wants to go and do
something and the others hate it?
-=-=-=-

Others will multiple children will chime in here.

-=-=-=-=-

Also, what about children with
special needs? Should they be unschooled, should it be exactly the
same for them, or should it just be modified somehow?

-=-=-

It’s different for *EVERY* child, Special needs or not. No two are
identical.

But special needs seem to benefit even *more* for being accepted for
Who They Are Right Now.

-=-=-=-

Please feel free to tell me to just observe if that is the better
choice.

-=-=-=-=-

I’d suggest to read at SandraDodd.com and at Joyce Fetteroll’s
ReJoycing site. Get Rue Kream’s absolutely incredible book, Parenting a
Free Child, an Unschooled Life

Read here—daily—and go back and read the archives. Ask questions.
That’s what we’re here for.

***

Unschooling allows each child to develop at their own pace, with their own style
and utilizing their own special abilities.

***

I think it’s hard to tell you what to do, especially when every
instance is so dynamic. If one child wants to do something, what is
it? Is it a once-in-a-lifetime chance, or is it a weekly occurrence,
or is it something that could happen any day? Is it in a place that
is enclosed with no other options (like a classroom where it would be
hard to entertain other kids) or is it at a park where people could
make choices about what they can do at that time? Is it an event you
could drop the one child off at while you take the other kids to a
local park? Is it an event that takes all day, or just an hour, or is
the time flexible? Are you willing to negotiate and say, “X would
like the opportunity to do this, since we’re out, is there anything
someone else would like to do?” or maybe “X wanted to go to this
playgroup, I happened to see a new comic book store over there, maybe
we could stop there later. Do you want to bring a toy/book/gameboy to
stay entertained while x is doing y?”

But you see how it’s not this or that, it really depends on the
situation. And obviously if it’s something that lasts an hour at an
art studio you’ll play it differently than something that lasts all
day at the park.

On special needs, I like what someone said about everyone having
special needs. I have one with autism, one with aspergers, I have one
with social anxiety and another with speech impediments and adhd. I
have two with food allergies. I have a newborn. Unschooling allows me
to address each of their needs. It allows them that they know what
they are interested in and to have me facilitate one on one, rather
than be in a public school where it’s legislated and the school has
no idea how to force feed their curriculum to a child it wasn’t
tailored to. We did that already, it was an exercise in frustration
and left my kids angry and confused. What to remember is that
unschooling doesn’t look the same for ANY two kids, whether they have
a disability or not. We facilitate a LOT more with Breanna than we
need to with our other kids, primarily because of her autism. She is
nonverbal and can’t communicate like the other children. She has
eating disorders based on sensory information, we work harder at
providing healthy alternatives in appealing manners. It may look more
hectic, but we do things on her schedule…she has to get up and run
in circles in between her play on boardgames or videogames. She reads
books by taking them apart and artzifying them (okay, we made up that
word long before we knew that people embellished books as a hobby).

And there is a huge difference between my aspie and autie, who were
in school for five years, and my son with adhd, because he’s never
been in school. He’s never been labeled on a daily basis, told he is
bad because of his behavior, or never forced to do something that is
against his nature. The thought of them forcing him to sit in a seat
for even 15 minutes made me sick. He’s doing great at home, he’s
learning how to read, learning how to work, learning how to
compromise in the real world. Last week we were in a restaurant, and
he asked to go outside because he knew he couldn’t sit still any
longer. My dh took him out, they ran up and down the hills outside,
and then came in. He was able to finish the meal, and sit while we
were finishing. He asked near the end if someone could take him back
out, and I asked him if he could wait just a couple minutes until we
paid, and he said sure. And he did, albeit bouncily.

So see, he’s learning all the time, not just academics, but he’s
getting real world practice of how to live with a differently abled
brain. My daughter with autism, in public schools would be forced
along in academics that don’t matter to her, and as part of her
autism training, they wanted to teach her to brush her teeth and
hair. When she hit sixteen (some kind of magical age ;-) ) then they
would teach her how to shop and clean house. WTH? That’s not cool.
She wants to go NOW. We take her to mcd’s and she buys her own french
fries. They are amazed. Whatever.

and now I’m talking too much. I’m trying to avoid dishes. Just like
the rest of my family, which makes it even more imperative that I do
it. lol! Long and short of it is, it’s not all black and white with
compromise, and all families benefit from unschooling. Parents, and
kids of any ability.

I have 7 kids, but they range in age from 20 (in college) down to 3 years
old, so my situation is a bit different. I don’t have to drag all the kids
everywhere any more, but I remember when we did. My daughter in particular
really liked to be out and about, while one of my sons was a very strong
introvert who thrived in a homebound environment.

We did a lot of working-out. If my sons had to be along for one of my
daughter’s events, I would try to do something to make the trip a little
better for them — books on tape, a treat at the store, whatever. Maybe
you could focus some activities for weekends or evenings; my dh is sometimes
willing to watch the kids at home OR provide the transportation for the more
active ones. In the long run, this working-out process has been a great
learning thing in itself. We were all challenged to look for working
solutions, but nothing ever worked perfectly for everyone ALL the time.

I have a special needs child — medically fragile and he had a stroke in
infancy, so he has global delays. He just turned seven. Unschooling is
working GREAT for him. What I am seeing is that unschooling helps me
focus on my childrens’ strengths, not their weaknesses.. Structured
schooling expects kids to do certain things at certain times, and BE a
certain way too — usually extroverted. When my introverted kids went to
school when they were younger, they were overwhelmed by the environment
around them — classes changing every hour, so many people, even the neat
preschool toys and learning projects — it was just TOO much. But the
attitude was that it was my children who were wrong, or my parenting had
been inadequate, not that the environment was simply not suitable for them.

My special needs child, though he is extroverted, had a similar reaction to
Early Intervention — SO much sensory input pouring in, and a focus on
working on his deficits. Unschooling, I can celebrate his progress and find
things that he will respond to, not expect him to respond to something just
because other kids do or because the therapist wants him to respond. So
much of school, especially for special needs children, seems behavioristic
and manipulative to me now.

I loved Melissa’s post — yes, I think the solution varies according to the
specific situations. Maybe if you asked for advice on a particular
situation. I find that sometimes I think I see a general problem in my
kids — then when I try to describe it specifically, it breaks down to be
one somehwat manageable problem. Or the ideas that work for the one
specific problem sometimes help with the related problems. What’s helped
me most, though, is realizing that all the problems have many, many
approaches to solutions, and that tackling it this way — choices and
possibilities — is a great example for the kids. I’m still learning this,
but even the little I’ve done has had lots of benefits.

***

” What I am seeing is that unschooling helps me
focus on my childrens’ strengths, not their weaknesses.. ”

I’m SO glad you mentioned this!
One of the really interesting Dad’s I chatted with at the conference
told me about Japanese Table Tennis players. The way they train, is
to focus on their strengths and really put energy into that.
By contrast, the American players focus on making their weaknesses
better, and therefore the Japanese players tend to dominate.

Imagine that! Focusing on strengths and not worrying about the
weaknesses!:) What a great concept. One that unschoolers understand
all too well.

Letting go of rules and “have to’s”

oklander_anderson_newborn_60642_l****I guess my question is are there other unschooling families out
there that did not unschool from birth and how did they de-parent
themselves? Any advice on how to let go of all the rules and ‘have
tos’? The things we read or are told by other families that we
‘supposed to do’. (ie diet, bedtime….)****

Personally, I’m really uncomfortable with the term “de-parenting”
because that’s not at all my goal. I’m still 100% my kids’ parent, I’m
just hopefully one of those warm, comforting, nurturing mamas that they
can always come to and feel safe and wrapped in love rather than one of
those enforcer mamas. (Anyone remember that ad line from 4 years ago or so?)

For me, I think questioning my own assumptions was probably my biggest
tool: asking “why?” or “why not?” or “is that really true?” Sometimes
I’d do the questioning all on my own, but other times, my kids were the
catalyst for the questions–when they pushed back, I’d need to step back
and start thinking more deeply.

Most things were as simple as just saying “yes” more and following their
lead, trying to clarify my own thoughts and needs in baby steps along
the way. This was certainly how we transitioned from being a tv-less
household to one with cable, letting go of the whole “have to”
surrounding screen time for kids.

Lots of times, too, it was finding ways to meet my needs as a parent in
ways that didn’t impose on my kids. That’s been a really big part of our
approach to food. I may not be comfortable with the kids having lots of
processed foods, but I can be very comfortable with them having lots of
homemade, whole wheat chocolate chip cookies, or ice cream without all
the chemical additives, that kind of thing. So, it wasn’t so much that I
just disregarded my need as a parent for the kids to have healthy, whole
foods, but that I worked to find a way to meet my own parental needs and
their needs at the same time.

I guess that brings me to another really important question in my
journey: the “would you be willing” question. That’s a big part of our
negotiations. One person needs x; one person needs y. Let’s think of as
many solutions as we can, and go through each one asking everyone
involved “would you be willing…” or “would this work for you?” If the
answer is no, well then, why not? One more bit of data to go on for
finding a solution that *will* work.

I think even when we begin deschooling ourselves when our kids are
really young that there’s still a lot of personal work that goes on
behind the scenes. If we do it really well, then maybe for our kids, it
will always appear seamless, and they can just take it for granted.
Starting young, means releasing old baggage and half truths and
practicing with new tools one step at a time. It starts off small
(though it always *feels* big in the moment), and builds as the kids get
older and the issues change and grow. Toothbrushing or bathing seem a
whole lot easier to deal with in retrospect than guns, for instance! lol
Never mind driving and dating. Whew–I hope I’ll be ready and
well-practiced by then!

***

Here’s how I took the term “de-parenting” (probably because of my own
highly controlled childhood): NOT as in how to de-parent one’s own
children … rather as in how to pull away from the values of the
culture and/or family of origin that are stifling to a happy thriving
unschooling environment. When I read that word with the word
themselves (de-parent themselves) in the context of the post, that’s
the meaning I come up with. The phrase in the sentence seems to have
“themselves” referring to “unschooling families” but I think the
intended meaning is something like “how do unschooling parents
de-parent themselves from cultural cues that are all about following
rules?”

***

It made me stop and think how “parent” is so very tightly connected with
the idea of rules and regulations and have to’s and control that someone
could think of “unparent” as letting go of those things. Kind of a sad
commentary on the state of parent-child relationships.

What a world it would be if “parent” was more connected to the idea of
support and nurture and provide and help and encourage and partnership.

My middle daughter said to me, today, that she didn’t know if she could
ever love someone who didn’t share her parent/child ideas and that
someone like that was pretty darn hard to find. She said that
differences in religion would be way easier to work through than
differences in parenting/views on education. I said maybe she needs to
work harder on meeting more unschooled guys – but she’s 21 and I’m not
sure there IS a real way for her to do that. Not back to school camp,
conferences, unschooling get-togethers – seldom include very many
20-somethings because, well, they have commitments and they’re really
busy people. I almost feel like they might benefit from a dating
service! (only half joking and picturing the speed dating episode on
Gilmore Girls).

***

Radical unschooling is indeed radical in that it upsets the “apple
cart” of parenting status quo and can present a new process for
learning how to parent from scratch. The idea gets at the basics, the
heart if you will, of what some people want to accomplish by parenting
in the first place though it uses an altogether different path to get
there.

***
I’ve often mentioned to DH that DS is going to have to look hard for a partner
in life because he’s very definite on some things, flexible on others, but
definitely not ‘mainstream’ by any means. He’s not quite 11 at this point but he
knows he won’t send his kids to school (unless there’s absolutely NO other
option, and there’s usually some option somehow). He’s also very used to eating
our homemade foods – hubby grinds the wheat (and rye and buckwheat) to make
bagels, for instance. I even mentioned to DS the other night that it might be
helpful for him, as he gets older, to learn some of the baking since it’s not
easy to find somebody like Daddy who can make bread and bagels and stuff. I
think that may have been after DH and I got a (surreptitious) chuckle out of DS
“hooraying” because we were having a veggie stir fry for dinner (or some other
similar, vegetable laden, “nutritious” thing that would generally elicit a “how
do you GET your kid to eat that?” type question). Oh, and DS is perfectly
willing to be the at home parent if his partner makes enough money for the
family to live on. No “male ego” type thing developed at this point (helps that
DH is the at home parent, has been since DS was 2).

Age is not a huge deal – I’m 8 yrs older than DH.

***

I wish I could just “convince” my husband that they
turn out great, but he is so worried that they will “miss out” on algebra and
such that they’ll “just cram” for their college entrance exams (if they even go
to college, he’s not pushing that, he just wants them to have the opportunity),
and then they won’t really “know” it and will have to do remedial college
classes and be embarassed. Or in the shorter term, if they “have” to go back to
school for some reason ( like part of this year I was in a clinical depression
and couldn’t handle our always homeschooled life), and he doesn’t want them to
be embarrassed that they aren’t “on par” with their classmates. I try to point
out to him that that is an individual thing, that there are public school
students who are not “on par” with their classmates.
Also, he will admit that it is not just the kids being embarrassed that he’s
worried about… it’s him. It seems that me being depressed for the time that
we unschooled, and just allowing the house to “go to pot”, including the kids
stagnating, being bored consistently, not getting out enough, etc.. has set us
back to square one. Square One being back when I first started homeschooling my
oldest for kindergarten 12 years ago. He wasn’t a fan of homeschooling for the
common reasons… “socialization… getting a good education…”
I’m a little frustrated. I’m a lot frustrated… but I am trying my hardest to
remain calm and in a partnership with him, not an adversarial position….

***

Here in California, lots of unschooled kids who decide to go to college
do take the remedial sequence of classes at a community college. That is
what my daughters have done. Rosie had an algebra test this morning and
she thinks she aced it. She’s always unschooled, never had one single
math lesson of any kind until she started taking college math courses
and she’s done really well – top of her class (compared to all those
other people who undoubtedly went to school for at least 12 or 13
years). Roxana, 21, who doesn’t have much interest in math – is an
actress/singer – is taking a probability and statistics course right now
and she’s doing just fine in that, too – getting an A in the class so
far. She’s taking it because she’s hoping to transfer to a university
next fall – majoring in drama, but college math is a requirement so
she’s wanting to get that out of the way now and focus on drama, music,
and dance after she’s transferred. (Send her some good vibes -
acceptance notices will go out in April. She only applied to one
university.)

I don’t think my kids have been at all embarrassed by taking the
remedial courses. Occasionally someone asks why they are taking those
lower-level courses (the implication being, “You’re so smart so why are
you in Math 20?”) and my kids just say, “Oh, well, you know we never did
any math so I just wanted to make sure I filled in any gaps.” Cool,
calm, casual, logical – they have no emotion attached to “remedial”
courses – and that word isn’t even used, anyway.

***

Yes, I think here in the US anyway that “parent” is so caught up with
“tough love” that it really can be hard to see one’s way out of that
paradigm. That’s part of what always made me crazy about the AP/ LLL
circles–here were all these moms who were so gentle and attached and
yet they turned soooo controlling!

I was on a bit of a mission when I started this list regarding
that–wanting to help parents see that unschooling was a way to continue
the gentle, attached, partnership part of AP/ LLL, that it didn’t all
have to end once the kids hit preschool age. The other name I was
considering for the list was AP2Unschool.

I do think it’s hard to make that paradigm shift. Control is sooo much
easier than problem solving all the time!

***

I love mothering.com but I have to be careful about which
forums I read because some of it is so upsetting. I mean, the
experiences that these kids are denied “for their own good” make me
sad. And these parents started out being so responsive and respectful
but as the child moves from helpless baby to curious toddler, the
restrictions start to tighten. And how. :(

Sometimes I sigh about all of the explaining I do. But in explaining
to my daughters “why” really helps clarify the real life reasons
behind what I’m doing. All that talking is exhausting, especially when
you have a strong willed child who questions everything. But we have
moved so far past just “because I said so” sort of reasons that
there’s no going back now.

In case I don’t sound happy about it, I am. My kids aren’t about to
make it easy for me, and that’s okay! It helps me continue to question
long held beliefs that may or may not have a basis in reality.

And the same people who were horrified (not too strong a word) that I
wasn’t going to send my older daughter to preschool at 2, and school
ever after that, are the same people who now can’t stop talking about
how amazing my kids are.

***

My opinion is that all kids are strong willed as soon as they have something
at stake that they care about. Some kids care about more things than
others. And when it’s not an issue, it isn’t. :)

With Karl, we have certainly done our share of explaining. The older he
gets, the less he wants (and often the less he needs) it. So while we
communicate way more than most “because I said so” parents, we are finding
that explanations are only part of it. The rest comes with observing what
Karl desires and needs, and providing for those things without tons of
talking. Which really helps with that exhaustion. I’m not much of a doer
by nature and I’m happy to report that being a mother has changed a lot of
that for me. :D

>>>> In case I don’t sound happy about it, I am. My kids aren’t about to
make it easy for me, and that’s okay! It helps me continue to question
long held beliefs that may or may not have a basis in reality. <<<<

Yes. And I’m finding that I’m able to do a lot of this talking within my
own mind to myself.. because a lot of times it *is* about me and my long
held beliefs. I listen to Karl’s “no” a lot sooner than I used to, and stop
in my tracks, go back to the drawing board, rethink what I want to do from
there, and then see if that meets well with Karl …. if need be, and if
there’s no need I just go from there. It’s still a lot more communication
than “because I said so” yet cutting out my usual thinking aloud thing keeps
the air clear for Karl who wants to hear it less and less these days. (His
dad is the same way.. so maybe it’s somewhat genetic/gender related.)

One of the ways I think aloud is here on the lists. A big big help to me.

>>>> And the same people who were horrified (not too strong a word) that I
wasn’t going to send my older daughter to preschool at 2, and school
ever after that, are the same people who now can’t stop talking about
how amazing my kids are. <<<<

Same here. :D I love it. Oh also. Any singing of praises I do about my
kids happens either on my blog or on the lists … to avoid putting those
things in the faces of people who probably wouldn’t always appreciate my
point of view. You know what I mean? I have very little if *anything* to
say about Karl that’s negative.

***

I think when parents first come to unschooling they only look at the “un”
part and then try to “un”-do everything. In some ways maybe that part is an
important part of the process. It helps with the deschooling of the parent.
However, it is important to come back to some balance, lest the children end
up being neglected.

***

That’s why sometimes, in some circumstance, with some people (that enough
disclaimers?lol) I’ll use a phrase like “family centered life learning” as being
somewhat more descriptive than “un”schooling so that people don’t get caught on
the “un” of everything.

***

It may not be an ideal word, but as someone who started out as a Much
more authoritarian parent, it has a lot of resonance for me. As much
as casting off the assumptions of schoolish thinking, I had to do a
lot of rethinking in the area of parenting and what kind of
relationship I wanted with my kids, plus learn a whole new set of
skills. There’s a description of deschooling that’s “getting school
out of your head” I had to get my mom out of my head!

> ****I guess my question is are there other unschooling families out
> there that did not unschool from birth and how did they de-parent
> themselves? Any advice on how to let go of all the rules and ‘have
> tos’? The things we read or are told by other families that we
> ‘supposed to do’. (ie diet, bedtime….)****

We didn’t start out unschooling Ray, so I had to do a good bit of “de-
parenting” in this sense. One of the things that helped me was
actually paying attention to the real results of my actions, not what
I’d been taught to believe about the results. Punishment is a good
example – the idea that punishment is effective became so obviously
untrue when I really looked at what was happening. Or the idea that
being firm about rules was “being consistent” – either the rules in
our home had so many conditions and modifiers that consistency was a
joke, or we held to them so dogmatically that there was no sense to
them. That was when I realized that the reasons behind the rules was
the important part – a biiiiiig step for me in terms of letting go of
rules entirely.

It also helped me to simple observe Ray – and later Mo – a whole lot
more carefully. Not just “supervise” but actually watch what they
were doing and how and when and be observant of time and place and
other details. There’s sooooooo much misinformation that floats
around the general parenting population on the basis of “everybody
knows” – a great deal of that, I found, fell by the wayside when I
really looked at my kids with skepticism towards what I thought I
knew about children.

***

We decided to homeschool, then unschool (once we found it had a name), by the
time DS was born. It was an ‘academic’ decision at the time – no classrooms,
lessons, etc. I stumbled onto the old unschooling.com message board (before
Yahoo groups). Boy did I wrestle with what I was reading there! About once a
month I’d get so ticked at something I read “That’s ridiculous!” that I’d stop
reading…for a week or two. Then I’d lurk for a bit and read other people’s
replies and the rest of the thread that had occurred since on that topic. I’d
pose the question or subject with DH and we’d hash it around with lots of ‘what
ifs’ and ‘how cans’ and so on. “if you don’t give him a smack on the diaper to
get his attention, how will he know that running in the parking lot is
dangerous?” type stuff.

Some things, like food, were easy – he nursed on demand so it made sense to let
him continue to eat when he was hungry, as long as he was hungry, and stop when
he was done. Short step from there to simply letting him choose the what as well
as the when and how much. We could see that he was healthy and growing and it
was kind of fun to watch other grownups’ reactions when our 3 yr old was elbow
deep in the ranch dip because he was chowing down on fresh broccoli, in the
midst of a table laden with all sorts of crackers, cookies, chips, etc :-) [for
the record, he's almost 11 and prefers lightly steamed broccoli to raw at this
point]. Us grown ups have learned, as well, how to eat in a more healthy manner
by watching and learning from him. Pretty cool!

Other stuff took longer – bedtime was a biggie for a while. It was a relaxed
range rather than a set time but it was still there, our schedule/convenience
not necessarily his choosing. Somewhere around when he was about 5, we decided
to just let go of it. *I* need to be in bed around a certain time to get up for
work. So, I just told him and DH that I was heading to bed, if either of them
wanted to snuggle before I fell asleep, they needed to be up there within about
half an hour, because I was going to read a little then go to sleep. That was
pretty much it – he spent a few nights staying downstairs “late” and falling
asleep on the couch (I’d go down and carry him to his room later on, for my own
comfort level – I didn’t trust the old beat up couch to not swallow him) [now,
he tends toward about a 25 hour cycle - some days he's up around 6 am and falls
asleep around 8 or 9, other times he wakes up around 7 pm and stays up all
night; we've also got a better couch now so he just sleeps wherever he chooses -
his room or the couch]

The single “smack” on the butt lasted until he was about 3. Then, he was being
resistant to getting his shoes on and I slapped his leg (the one that was busily
kicking me). He slapped me back. I had to take a big breath when I realized that
my first reaction (quashed) was to slap him again, which would then escalate.
Instead, still not my best moment, I just got mad and said something to the
effect of “Fine, if you won’t cooperate I’m going to just go to the other room
because I don’t want to be around someone who is kicking me and we just won’t go
<wherever>” whereupon he promptly threw a screaming hissy fit and followed me to
the other room. We eventually got sorted out that day. And, lots of learning has
occurred between then and now on how things “work” best – what kind of
information does he need, what tools does he need (he’s got way more tools now
than when he was 3), what tools did *I* need to develop, etc.

From about age 3 to about age 7 was the rockiest time – one ‘tool’ that helped
was reading “Raising Your Spirited Child”. It helped with understanding not only
DS’ behavior but why he and DH clashed so mightily so often – they are both
spirited personalities, but not exactly in the same ways. I didn’t totally agree
with it all, nor do I really think of DS as “spirited” so much these days, but
it was a way to get a handle on some useful ideas, concepts, tools that have
become second nature, like a carpenter swinging an old familiar hammer.

I think that covers pretty much our big 3…hmmm, we learned early on that lots
of rules didn’t work well. So, we boiled it all down to 2: respect others and be
safe. Pretty much covers everything we’ve met up with so far – interpersonal
relationships, nutrition, bouncing on the furniture, seatbelts, etc.

***

That was Roya – she’ll be speaking at the San Diego Good Vibrations
Conference in September. She has a lot more to say now that a few years
have gone by and she’s graduated from college, worked as an assistant
back-country forest ranger in Alaska, and now is director of a program
called “Access to Adventure” she plans and carries out excursions and
activities for adults with developmental disabilities. As part of her
job, she also runs a lot of big fund-raising events and is responsible
for an internship program. She absolutely loves her work.

I’ll have Rose with me this weekend at the HENA conference in Tempe,
Arizona. It is a one-day conference – morning to night on Saturday.
Rosie will be speaking with me and with Sandra Dodd and at least a
couple of her kids and the kids (young adults) will also be on a panel
moderated by Grace Llewelyn (The Teenage Liberation Handbook).

I am proud of them. But honestly the reason they are willing to get up
and speak about unschooling is that they have so many dear friends who
were NOT at all unschooled, who have pretty horrible things to say about
their parents, and who have lots of stuff to “get over” once they get
away from their parents. My kids want to help make it possible for more
teenagers to have good relationships with their parents and flow more
smoothly into adulthood without so much heavy baggage.

***
We have a kind of joke in this family…
My (22 yr old AU) son will say that we -his father and i- are the
*unschoolers* in the family, and that we always will be, since we have to
question everything we know from school, and then decide what needs to be
*un*learned and *un*done.
He <bwg> (on his face), on the other hand, is just *living life*.

***

linda’s son and his two cousins who were also unschooled at least part
of their lives gave an awesome roundtable talk at a Maryland
homeschooling conference a couple years back. It was really great to
hear from their perspective about learning and life and how they thought
about both their future and their past.

Unschooling Fears and Strewing

I’m curious about what people’s fears are/were about starting to
unschool. My top one is I’m afraid I don’t have the energy to provide
enough activities, social life, opportunities, whatever for my kids.

***

I’d say that is mine, still a year later. We do ok, and it’s WAY BETTER
than any other way we’ve lived. But I know that I am just not doing enough
strewing, interacting, etc. I’m hoping that when the kids are older (they
are 8, 3 and 10 mos) it will get easier. Hard to do anything which requires
much set up/length for the big one when the little ones are around.

***

Sandra Dodd’s article seems focused on small children. Does anybody have
examples of ways they strew for older kids?

Here is one I did recently. We live in a small house and Ds was in the
bathroom with the door closed. The bathroom is located just across the hall
from my bedroom where my computer is located. I was checking out free sheet
music websites and came across some with Midi files so you could listen to
the piece. I clicked on *The Enterainer*. As soon as he heard it, the
bathroom door flew open and Ds was very interested in printing off a variety
of music to practice his clarinet and propose a duet with a friend of his
that plays the piano.

***
I rent movies I think they’ll like and learn from and leave them around
and the kids often watch them. I take dvd’s and cd’s along in the car.

So I guess that is a form of strewing for my teenagers.

***

Whenever I come across a website that I think one of my kids will enjoy I email
the link to them. Sometimes I surf a lot so I can send quite a few.

***

There’s more there too if you leave off the last part of the link. :)
http://sandradodd.com/strewing

***

There are two sides to strewing.

One is putting stuff that is likely to be, or even merely possibly,
interesting into the visual, auditory or philosophical radar/proximity of
our kids.

The other is to remain detached from the outcome. Don’t get bent out of
shape if the answer is a resounding disinterest (might be temporary). Don’t
become invested in the idea that some stuff you dig is more valuable than
other stuff.

Strewing is in addition to the interests that the kids discover on their
own.

***

Is there anyone willing to elaborate more on strewing? This has
always been a difficult concept for me to wrap my brain around. And,
after reading the latest strings of posts, I’m really interested in
getting to the “next level” on this one.

Up to this point my understanding of stewing is *leaving books and
other reading material that may be of interest in various locations
around the house*. After paying more attention, as I’ve always
suspected, it seems there is much more than this to it.

What does *strewing* mean to you? What do you strew around your
home? What wisdom can you share on this concept? What do you stew to
entice those that don’t enjoy reading? Where do you get your ideas,
not topics, but WHAT you actually stew?

***

Zach (14) reads voraciously and I have a hard time keeping him in
books. He likes to explore other cultures, history, current events/
politics. Zoe (7) doesn’t read yet. She’s an artist and performer
mostly. She draws a lot of fashion and Manga influenced artwork.

I’m fairly new to this but here’s what I’ve done lately:

I bought some of those Dover http://store.doverpublications.com/ Art
Postcard books, tore out the cards and left them sitting in my living
room.

I bought a miniature Zen Garden (from Scholastic books) with the
little rocks and a tiny little rake and left that with the
informational book that came with it on my bookshelf — makes a nice
decoration.

I bought a physics toy from Target (under $7) and put it in my living
room. It’s one of those “Executive Toys” with the metal balls that
are suspended from two parallel bars and when you pull one or more
back and let go, they hit the other balls and send the same number of
balls flying back on the other side.

I leave magazines like: Newsweek, Highlights, Muse, Better Homes &
Gardens, Live Free Learn Free etc. on my coffee table.

I bought several Paper Doll Fashion books, again from Dover, and
leave them under my coffee table.

I order movies from Netflix: documentaries like “The Life of ….
(Mammals, Birds, etc.)” and Penne and Teller’s Bullshit, as well as
dramas, comedies etc. I usually ask if anyone wants to watch them
with me, if they don’t, I watch them myself.

I have a bird identification book laying out most days, along with my
binoculars. I like to look at the birds that come to my birdfeeders
and birdbath.

That’s just a few things that I’ve done lately.

***

Strewing…hmm first thing that comes to mind is it’s a little
maybe “Zen”like. If you are consciously thinking “I’m strewing” then
you’re still learning to ‘strew’. Over time it becomes part of your
life rather than a conscious thought of “I need to strew something”.
I went to the bookstore and saw a Fantastic Four comic book. I
didn’t think “Oh I’ll strew this for DS – reading, art/graphics,
yadda yadda” but rather “Hey DS would like this” so I got it.
Likewise, DH built a mini-motor yesterday – some wire coils and a 9
volt battery. As he worked, he and DS talked about the parts – the
field coil, the armature coil (see I learned stuff too! lol), etc.
It wasn’t a ‘science lesson’ or anything – it was something *DH*
chose to do and enjoys playing with and for as long as DS was
interested, they talked about it. It’s totally DH’s interest but he
invites DS along for as long as he chooses to hang out and see what
happens. So part of strewing is also being curious and interested in
things for your own self. DS has come to really like smooth jazz.
Not from ‘music appreciation’ anything but because we like it and
it’s around us. In a ‘strewing’ vein, when DS seemed to enjoy
certain classical pieces, we picked up the Beethoven’s Wig CDs -
note the interest came first in this case (sometimes interest comes
first, other times we bring something that generates interest).

Didja ever see Coming to America with Eddie Murphy? Strewing is like
the rose petals the young ladies are tasked with tossing before the
Prince. They don’t know where he will go next specifically. They
know his usual routines and patterns, where he generally goes. They
keep a close eye on his non-verbal communication as well as
listening to his conversations (discretely of course lol). All this
together gives them some idea of where to toss the next handful of
petals – unless he changes direction suddenly, in which case they
regroup and get back in strewing position again. So, we watch DS
(not hawklike but living together like), we listen, we talk, we
explore together. The other day I noted to DH that DS seems to
currently be interested in how things are spelled (he was asking me
how to spell lots of things) and also seems to be ‘consolidating’
numbers (adding, subtracting) because he’s been telling me number
related things that he’s figured or noticed (he had 2 of something
in a game and needed 8 so he told me he needed 6 more). By
communicating my observations to DH and he to me, we can keep both
sets of eyes out for things that might interest DS and then we can
bring those things into his orbit – some might fly right by and
others will be captured in his gravitational sphere.

Another way to think about it, perhaps, is similar to when you are
dating and newlywed – you keep your eyes out for things you know
your partner would like – a favorite author, a musician, a
particular food or type of food (DH bookmarked the Godiva website!),
etc. and when you find something you think might be of interest, you
bring it home or bring your partner to it (depending on what it is).
That particular item might be wonderful, it might not be (your Tex-
Mex spice loving partner might find Thai cuisine a bit too
differently spiced for instance). You don’t keep going back there
until your partner “learns to like it” – you drop it and move on.
And maybe in a couple of years your partner will say Hey what was
that Thai place? I think I’d like to try that again. Or maybe not.

Strewing has no strings attached. Kind of like those cartoon
rabbit/roadrunner/whatever traps with the box and string, some
people think strewing is putting out some tempting ‘bait’ to “get”
their kids to learn something. The problem with that is it takes
almost no time for the kids to become suspicious of all ‘bait’, even
things they might like, because of the string attached. Strewing is
stringless – bringing in things you think might bring joy into the
household and then letting them take on their own life, wherever
that leads. DH’s current playing with wires and batteries and
magnets? That started when he began building his own light saber out
of copper pipe, wiring, flashlight innards, etc. His interests and
curiousity have brought things into our home that I wouldn’t have
considered but now think nothing of having – they’re just part of
us. Likewise, there are probably things I bring to the table. And DS
brings his own things as well (it goes in all directions, not just
adults to kids).

***
To me strewing is just bringing home anything that I think my family will
enjoy. It has nothing to do with reading or not reading. It’s the same
thing I do for my mother or husband. If I see something he/she’d like, I’ll
either tell him/her about it or show it to him/her and let him/her decide if
it merits further consideration.

I have two girls who are not *big into reading. My ten year old is VERY
capable but still prefers that I read to her when it comes to fiction. She
does love to read maps and the Uncle Henry’s magazine (lists things people
have for sale) and a few horse magazines. I provide these things for her,
as her interests dictate.

My 9 yo is just starting to read to herself (also very capable) but I no
longer worry about whether or not they will ever *want to read. Both dh and
I are avid readers and I expected at one point my kids would naturally be
that way but I have come to terms with the fact that they may never like
reading like I do and that is o.k. They have both learned to read because
they wanted to and without my interference. They will use reading like any
other tool in life, as they need it, to get what they want out of it.

For me, strewing is bringing things into the house that they might not think
to bring in. Things like games that I come across that I think they’ll like
(we all love to play games) , or movies, or just ideas to talk about. I’ll
send them emails that have been forwarded to me if I think they’ll get a
laugh out of them. Not just so they’ll read or learn something but because
I think they’ll like them.

This year I strewed a pool in our yard. No one wanted it except me but I
knew if we got it that it would get a lot of use. I was right. It wasn’t a
costly chance because it’s one of those soft sided jobbies that you can get
at Wal-Mart for $100, everything included, and I knew I’d get $100 worth of
use out of it myself.

***

My dd doesn’t enjoy reading for pleasure. I, like you, am an avid
reader. I love reading many types of books for pleasure. dh doesn’t
enjoy reading for pleasure either. But also expected that my dd
would like to read because she saw me reading so much. I learned
long ago it doesn’t always work that way (the schools expect them to
always be reading, encouraging them to do so, summer reading lists
etc etc. If you love to read, this is fine, but didn’t work for my
child and it’s ok with me!). Right now she’s playing an online
interactive computer game (alot) that has an instruction book with
it. It’s on her desk and she refers to it quite often. She reads
what others have typed on the screen and types back. She enjoys
listening to books on tape during car trips (on the way to camping
spots). She also enjoys being read to (still, she’s going to be 13
next month).

***

Many have mentioned being avid readers themselves and having
children that are NOT avid readers. I, myself, am an avid reader
and lover of books. I believe this to be where my “confusion” on
strewing began.

I always interpreted strewing as placing interesting printed
material around the house. “Live Free, Learn Free” and “Life
Learning” are always in my bathroom with the motorcycle parts
catalog. I keep books on the coffee table that seem interesting. I
check out books from the library if I think someone may be
interested. The kids have books in their rooms that may be
interesting to them.

As unschoolers we understand that everyone learns differently, and
not everything *looks* like learning. I guess what I would like to
know is HOW do those of us that DO NOT ENJOY reading learn. What IS
learning for those that do not read. By this I mean, how does
someone that is interested in varieties of strawberries, for
example, learn about varieties of strawberries and how to grow them
successfully and how to can them or make jam without reading? How
is knowledge sought outside of reading?

I am not saying that it is not possible to learn without reading. I
*know* it is. BUT, I am admitting that I do not understand *how* it
is. What resources does a person use to learn something outside of
a book? Please enlighten this bookworm…

***

I don’t necessarily think that just because an 8 or 10 yo does not enjoy
reading now that they will never enjoy reading. One thing I can say about
my own kids however is that they are more than willing to look up something
they want to know, they just, at this point, don’t enjoy reading fiction for
pleasure. They do however both have very active imaginations and enjoy
having me read to them, books on tape, telling stories, and movies and TV.

That said, it would be fairly easy to surround yourself with other people
who enjoy the same things that you do and ask them questions. Most people
who have a passion for something enjoy sharing about it.

***

I understand strewing to mean not just reading material – ANYTHING
(games, interesting “toys” or things of any type that invite
investigation, movies, video games, something you found outside
etc). Here’s a couple of things I found by googling “strewing”
(there’s also a lot about strewing herbs…..?! I’ll have to check
that out later).

http://sandradodd.com/strew/sandra

http://melissawiley.typepad.com/bonnyglen/2005/01/strategic_strew.html

>I guess what I would like to know is HOW do those of us that DO NOT
ENJOY reading learn. What IS learning for those that do not
read….What resources does a person use to learn something outside
of a book?>>>>

It sounds like you’re saying this “person(s)” don’t read AT ALL. (?)
Learning can take place by watching others, asking questions of
someone knowledgable about the subject, doing something along side
someone who knows about the topic of interest, looking up something
on the internet (a “demo” or pictures etc), trying something until
they figure it out themselves (and learning a lot of different things
along the way)……

***
I learned how to garden by helping my mother-in-law and listening to her
experiences. I learned how to can fruits and vegetables by doing so with my
grandmother. I learned how to cook and bake by hanging out with my
grandmother, too. I learned how to do quilting stitches by hanging out with
my aunt. I learned how to do laundry from my mom showing me how to do it.
Most of the practical things I learned after high school, I learned by
hanging out with people. I learned how to swim by taking a class, but it
didn’t involve any reading.

***

I was an English professor in a former life, so when
my son didn’t love reading, I couldn’t understand it.
He is a visual learner primarily, so he watches how
people do things or how something works. I look at it
this way, if I have to install a faucet, I want
written step-by-step directions, whereas he wants a
picture diagram. He does read when he needs to know
something, like a video game guide, for example. He
doesn’t always comprehend what he’s reading really
well, but he works through it with trial and error or
asks someone for help. He watches movies and tv. I
just read an article the other day that talked about
how general IQ is rising because we are becoming
better problem-solvers. Most of us don’t read the
instruction manual that comes with our cell phone, but
we figure it out. In the end, pictures can be worth a
thousand words, and so can endless curiosity.

***

I think perhaps you are missing a distinction between reading for
pleasure/recreation and reading for information. I love to read -
books, magazines, cereal boxes (lol), whatever. Our veterinarian
rarely reads fiction – he’ll read an occasional biography or history
if the subject is something of interest to him but that’s all – he
doesn’t read fiction at all. DS will sometimes read for fun (last
night he sat and giggled over a Captain Underpants book for a while)
but mostly he is looking for information – game hints, info on
dinosaurs, jokes/riddles, how to put together his Bionicles,
whatever. So, strewing might include ‘how to’ short articles (not
whole books or magazines) and links to useful websites. It also
might include videos, audiotapes, TV programs, etc. It might include
finding a farm and talking to the farmer about what kind of
strawberries grow best in our area – real, live resources. It might
involve calling grandpa and asking about something that happened “a
long time ago”. It might include going to a garden shop and
exploring things there. It might be simply reading a recipe to make
jam (information reading, not pleasure reading). I know someone
who’s pre-teen DD is just beginning to read fluently. She doesn’t
read a lot for pleasure at all. However, she loves to pore over seed
catalogs and browse the garden shop. She can read (interpret the
symbols) enough to have a lovely garden going this summer. Her mom
helps out with words or phrases that are new or difficult.

Printed materials are just ONE venue in strewing, not the only one.

***

Videos.
Books on CD.
Mentor.
Trial and error/practical experience.

And just because someone doesn’t care to read doesn’t mean he won’t
read for information.

***

As the mother of an almost 13 yo who doesn’t enjoy
reading for pleasure like I do (and dh is like her), she does KNOW how
to read, and does so all the time “for information”. If she doesn’t
recognize a word or can’t say it (because she’s a visual/spatial
learner, phonics don’t work for her) she’ll ask me what it means,
or, “how do you spell “xyz”?”.

She’s learning all the time. I can really see it now that I’m home
with her 24/7 (only since this past June)! I also am seeing some
signs of healing. It’s wonderful.

***

of course you mean some form of Advanced topic – not everything your
child learned before he or she learns to read. Actually – I’ve often
been really suprised by how much my children seem to pick up without
going to a book to get the information.

Of course, my wife and I are big resources at this point – simple
questions and answers are how my son learned about dinosaurs,
sharks,whales, sea animals in general, spiders, other various insects
and airplanes. Other things can be learned by trial and error or
example.

Granted, reading makes your child’s learning much more independant,
but a lack of reading does not necessarily cripple him. If that were
the case, how would you explain the plethora of children who graduate
high school without their teachers even knowing they are functionally
illiterate. I’m not talking about the poor students either – People
with solid grade point averages who, because of an undiagnosed
learning difference, never actually learned to read, but were still
able to get around the system?

***

Strewing can be anything from a game to some nice pens. I have even strewed
food. ( my son is a history buff and I strewed chocolate from a shop that made
it during Victorian times). Children learn from everything -playing, c.ds.
videos music, craft, bouncing on their trampoline. Toys, baking, cooking,
science experiments, days out to places, shopping, bathtime – I could go on
forever. Books are only part of it for us.

***

Our lives are strewn with interesting activities and people. We raise goats,
rabbits and sheep. I have a daughter who is huge into gymnastics, a son who is
huge into shooting skeet, another daughter who is huge into English riding and 2
more kids still trying to find thier “thing”. We watch movies, read the
newspaper, watch and discuss “Degrassi” which brings up all kinds of topics. We
have a garden, several of us crochet, we have exchange students stay with us.
When I have meetings of various groups that need a place to meet, I offer my
house so cool, active, interesting people are often floating around the house.
We travel, make wine, and are looking into getting bees. We have a ranch (OK
200 acres of raw wilderness) where we go play, explore and try to identify
things.

Basically, I am always showing the kids things, if they want to do it I try to
make it happen.

Example: My 14yo is flying out Friday to Houston to go to a concert with
friends and fly back in the next day. Friends complain that I am spoiling
her….but I had a free ticket, I love her friend, I trust my kid…If I had
said “no”, it would have been just an arbitrary no.

***

Have you read the Book of Learning and Forgetting by Frank Smith? He
believes that one of the ways we learn is by hanging out with people of similar
interests. I think of my brother who loved skateboarding. He didn’t learn how
to board by himself from a book, he hung out and boarded with his friends.
They challenged each other and created new tricks based on what the other guys
were doing.

Think about all the yahoo groups. People have an interest, something at
which they may or not be proficient, and they join the group to discuss it and
learn from others that are doing it. Many times they meet their group
friends in real life. Why? To learn from each other! Unschooling is a great
example, you don’t have to go learn how to be a great unschooler first, then
join
a list or read a discussion board. You jump right in. You seek unschoolers
in real life, hang out with them and their kids, observe them in action and
ask questions.

La Leche League is another great example of how people learn. The womanly
art of breastfeeding was getting lost because nursing is not something people
were doing anymore and therefore not passing on to their daughters. The
woman that formed the League knew that the only way to promote breastfeeding
was
to create a real life community of breastfeeding.

TV has created another sort of community. So much of the programming is how
to cook or decorate or fix a squeaky door or documentaries of everything
from WWII to popculture of the 70′s. Then we talk about our favorite shows
with
our friends. Then we try out a new recipe or get around to fixing that door.

We instinctively gather with people that have similar interests, goals and
ideas. We learn from people that do what we want to do and mentor others in
our turn. School forced us to believe that learning only happens by certain
methods, but anyone with hobbies proves that it isn’t true.

***

very awesome and very true…. my now 16 yr old son,,, is not what you would
call a real big reader,,,but,, he has gotten more envolved in gamming and
ofcourse ,,, there is ,, along the way reading to be done,, he is most capable
when it is of interest to him as is anyone else,,,,

***

Strewing for us… Ashton watches a ballet on tv, expresses an
interest. I have tables around my house to plop things on and I
pick up a ballet book for plopping. I order a dvd from Amazon on
ballet. We buy old dance shoes at a rummage sale and dance around
together.

We have a conversation about wildflowers that are starting to bloom
on our land. I dig through my bookshelf and find a dover color book
on wildflowers. I put it out on the table by the markers. Tycen
picks it up and starts discussing what flowers we have. He and I go
through the book together and color and take a walk and identify how
many of the flowers grow on our land.

Sometimes strewing goes along untouched. The stuff I thought might
be of interest is not, and that is okay. It is just out there for
them to pursue their interests and explorations more fully. If the
interest was simply satisfied with whatever conversation about the
subject that is okay. The stuff gets rotated out, off the tables.
Therefore making room for whatever new stuff we can think of.

This week on our table is a new puzzle. No one has to do the puzzle,
but amazingly everyone has. I did it first. I also have several
kinds of puzzle books on the table, along with riddles.

I have a son interested in construction. He helped us build our deck
in the last several weeks. During this time I strewed with
tinkertoys, legos, magazines on building, tool catalogues, He has
all kinds of ideas for what is next in his building plans because he
has multiple ideas to pull from.

That is how strewing works for us. Sandra Dodd has great strewing
ideas, you may try her site.

***

I think just answering his questions lovingly and
quickly and letting him (trusting him) to connect
the dots and get that process happening in his
head. I think I would ask him if he would like
things labeled, since that kind of stuff can
definitely irritate my son. He might like it,
but I think it’s better (more respectful) to
ask. We can force our kids to learn stuff, but
it’s way better to allow reading (and everything)
to unfold for them when they’re ready, and then they’ll do it!

I just thought of this analogy: In the
wintertime, you can go outside and clip off a
piece of your forsythia bush. You can bring it
in the house, stick it in water, and you can
force it to bloom. But, it’s not really ready
to, and eventually the flowers will drop
off. And, you had to chop off that piece of the
foliage, which would have bloomed in its own time
anyway when the time was right if you had only just left it alone.

Marji, who just witnessed this amazing phenomenon
first-hand with my 11½-year-old son who just this
year connected the dots and can now read stuff. Truly magical!!

P.S. I’m not saying that you, yourself, are
forcing your son or pushing him in anyway. I’m
just expanding on the question a little.

P.P.S. We got this cool set of magnetized words
a long time ago, and put them on the front of the
refrigerator. We have a lot of fun rearranging
them in crazy ways (“Don’t sit on my cheesy
moose”). That could be an example, I suppose, of
strewing for reading, but we just do it ’cause
it’s fun. I also suppose if you pick up things
that you think he might be interested in reading,
that would be cool, too, as long as you
understood that he might not be interested in it at all and that would be okay.

***

We got paint chips and cut them into the squares and rectangles—the
best ones are the ones with *names* of the colors, not the
numbers—sometimes the color names are inspirational all by
themselves. We used plain and decorative scissors to cut them. We each
added words we loved—FUN words—and different parts of speech. We
added glitter around some of them and beads and wire on a few. Some
have been painted just a bit. Tiny feathers. Some don’t have words at
all: one has a picture of a bee! <G> We have cards with tiny photos of
us and our guide dog pup, Ryan. All sorts of different decorative
things. We then glued a tiny magnet to the back of each one. Now we
have our *own* poetry magnets!

I was inspired by Joyce’s word thingy (sorry, Joyce! I can’t remember
what it’s called!), but Ben was wondering what we could do for his mom
for her big birthday. I thought 70 little things would be neat. We
tried a few for ourselves—TOO MUCH FUN! So we’re going to do this for
my Mother-in-law—70 magnets—some with words, others with images,
many decorated. We’ll give her a large package of 70 tiny little words
for her to arrange on her own refrigerator. A GREAT gift for the person
who has everything AND very little space to put more junk! <G>

I think a child just starting to read would *easily* pick out his own
words or some of his favorites if you did this!

***

Here’s what strewing means to me.

1) Helping them find resources that promote their interests.
For example, my youngest is extremely interested in space. We’re
planning a day trip to the Kennedy Space Center this summer. She didn’t
ask to go but I know that she would enjoy it.

2) Helping them to find resources on their own. (This was also a tool
we used to help them build their self esteem after the adoption)
My middle daughter is passionate about horses. We live in “The Horse
Capitol of the World” (Ocala, Fl) and there are always fairs, shows,
trades, etc going on. I showed her where to get the community paper
every week (online and offline) so she can check to see what’s going
on. She checks it often, lets me know what is close by and inexpensive
and we go.

3) Being interested in things myself and sharing that with them.
I share my love of heavy metal/hard rock music, my new interest of
gardening, the fun I have shopping in thrift stores, etc.

4) Buying things and going places that I think they would enjoy.
I just bought a gigantic world map for our family room. Nobody asked
for it. I just thought it would be interesting to have. When they go
tot he library, I roam around the kids section and pick out books on a
variety of topics. When we get home, I put the on the coffee table in
our family room and let them know their there.

***

You can strew things, places, ideas, music, food, nature, games,
activities,…even other people!

Strew things they are interested in. Things *you* are interested in.
Things any of you *might* be interested in. Things that are
related/connected in some way to current interests. Things you didn’t
even *know* you’re interested in! <G>

The idea is to connect new things to old things and to open up their
world—make it bigger and better!

***

Give him the answers he is looking for! :o) Bring home as much printed material
as he is interested in and drop it when he’s had enough. Strewing word magnets
and letters and books and stampers and blocks are all great ideas. If he likes
the idea of labelling the house go for it. My dd Qacei did this once. (We still
have some of our electronics labelled.) But only do it if it’s fun and welcomed.
Otherwise it’s a waste of your time and potentially off putting for your son.

***

My dd is 13 and still asks these types of questions (“how do you spell
XXX” and instead of “what does that say?” it’s “what does XXX
mean”?). I have always gladly given her the info (if I wasn’t sure, I
looked it up, on-line is great!). She can’t spell phonetically, but
is a visual/spatial learner, so she needs to form a picture of the
whole word in her mind in order to know it. She doesn’t read for
pleasure, yet she have an amazing vocabulary (doesn’t have to come
from books, conversation works just as well!).

***

Leaving things around for your kids to discover.

http://sandradodd.com/strew/sandra

***

Freedom as compared with permissiveness

I’d like to ask what lessons you have for me on the issue of freedom
as compared with permissiveness. I really dislike that word
(permissiveness), but I can’t think of any other way to describe what
I’m trying to say.

The reason I ask is because I come to this notion of unschooling from
a very traditional place but grew up in a very permissive environment.
It felt a little like respect and a lot like “you’re on your own”
which left me ill prepared for some of life’s simple realities.
I wanted better boundaries and more parental input (structure?)

Is there a lot of agreement on things like chores (none) or are those
with more structured unschooling environments just more quiet?

I am on other lists where most are self described “radical
unschoolers” Do most on this list characterize themselves the same
way and what is the difference between an unschooler and a radical
unschooler? I would be so grateful if everyone could share a little
of their thinking with me.

***

Well, we know you didn’t come from an unschooling home because you
would not have felt all “on your own.” We loook at it as a partnership.
I’m here to help my sons and support them, whatever their interests.
There’s a LOT of repect. Chances are you were in school, so even *that*
esteemed place of higher learning <cough, sputter> didn’t prepare you
for “life’s simple realities.”

There are natural boundaries out there. You find them as you explore.
Parental input is not the same thing as structure.

-=-=-=-

>>>>>Is there a lot of agreement on things like chores (none) or are
those
with more structured unschooling environments just more quiet?

-=-=-=-

The loudest of us <g> aren’t chore-givers. We work together to make the
household run. We help each other and we realize that different things
are important to different people.

Julie’s family has chores, but they aren’t set up as
“you-do-the-things-on-this-list-or-else”—they have a working farm
with lists of things that must be done each day. They’ve come to a
concensus as to how everything will be accomplished each day. It’s
flexible and caters to each others’ strengths.

Structure doesn’t mean chores or no chores. I have a lot of structure
to my day/week/month/year. It’s the way *I* work best. But I don’t
enforce *my* way on my sons.

If you’d like to get away from chores—see what it’s like on this side
of the fence—we can help you get there.

-=-=-=-

>>>>>>I am on other lists where most are self described “radical
unschoolers” Do most on this list characterize themselves the same
way and what is the difference between an unschooler and a radical
unschooler?

-=-=-

The owners and moderators are all radical unschoolers.

Most of this list? I’d say *most* are beginners! <bwg> I’d guess 90%
(totally made up stat) of the few loudmouths are radicals.

I don’t think *any* of us would characterize ourselves in the same way.

Basic difference is that the unschooler sees everything as
educational—snakes and lemon cookies and computers and mud puddles
and right angles and clocks and legos and music boxes and Goethe—all
equally educational.

We radicals extend that learning to bedtimes and eating and hygiene and
chores—radicals see *EVERYTHING* as learning. We see how children as
VERY capable in all parts of life and living. We want our children to
trust that they can learn *anything* if they want to—not just the
“educational” stuff.

***

I am most interested in exploring your comments about *you* having
structure but not requiring it of your kids. That is mostly where I
ran into trouble… I follow a Penelope Leach model of parenting…
respect, love, understanding… and in observing and understanding
(and trying everything under the sun) I have found that structure is
very necessary for my ds’s happiness – in our current configuration-
and worried that choosing unschooling meant giving up on the hopes of
providing my children with structure under which they flourish.

***

Then you’re misunderstanding the whole concept of unschooling. It
means giving the children what they need. And each child is different.

But I think it’s important NOT to think you know what your child
needs! She can tell you. Maybe not now, but you should be able to take
her cues. She’ll let you know when she’s had enough or when something’s
too much or not enough.

I think a child who craves structure (like me) will develop that
herself. If you see her struggling, you could help her tweak what she’s
already doing—or show her an alternative. The biggest problem is
making sure it’s HER initiative, not *yours*!!!

A lot of parents think their children need structure, when in reality,
it’s the parent that does. If the mom’s structure slides, the mom
freaks out and starts making the children toe the line so that she can
get things back in *her* order.

“Structure” (in education circles) often means curriculum. In
Unschooling, it means a plan to the hour/day/week/month/year/whatever.
Some children really do need to know what’s going to happen next and
next and next. But in unschooling, they DON’T need to know that math is
at 9:00 and history at 10:00. They need to know they are going to the
park at 10:00, lunch at 12:30 (and where), the grocery at 2:00, and
legos from 3:30 until supper. It’s a different KIND of structure from
the school model. We don’t need to structure their *learning*, just
help structure their days for them. Their learning happens as that side
effect.

*I* need structure to get all my list done in one day (been sliding
soooo much lately—too many irons in the fire! Makes me feel
powerless. Need to stop, breathe, refocus!). But I DON’T need to
structure my learning. I learn while I’m doing all the things on my
lists. (Yes, that’s plural—I have several all going at once! <bwg>).

***

What I was trying (miserably, obviously) to say was that, if you
thought unschoolers couldn’t structure things, you misunderstood what
we try really hard to get across: each person, especially each CHILD,
is unique. It’s our job as parents is to find what works for each
child—especialy if that child is not like us.

***

Tone is what you make of it. There is no “tone” in most posts as we have no
way of reading sarcasm, query or challenge into the words posted. Our own
tone enfluences how posts will be read. :) I was very recently kicked off
(or rather asked to leave and then moderated) from an e-mail list for
homeschoolers. It was for a group across the border. I joined it because
it was the only list for that are, a place we were considering moving and
because Dan works there and I thought we might join them for some of the
(really cool) activities that they do since it isn’t that far of a drive.
We’ve done a few things with them, but not much just because of the friggin’
gas prices (you can intone that anyway you want :) ) For the past year or
so whenever a new person would sign on the list with their “Hello, I’m new
to all this homeschooling and dont’ even know where to begin. Help me.”
posts, I would offer information about unschooling. Never the “Oh this is
the ONLY way to homeschool and if you don’t do it this way then you are a
dolt.” But simply, “I have found that unschooling has really worked well
for our family. We love the freedom to learn as and what we want. For more
information you can write me off-list or visit this website.” *Everytime* I
would post something like that the owner would jump in and go “Warning:
Unschooling is NOT the only way to homeschool. Please look into ALL the
different ways of homeschooling before you select one.” And yes; she would
use the word “warning.” What I found ironic about the whole situation is
that she claimed that she was going to use the “Classical” or “Trivium”
approach with her children (3 under the age of 5 – so not even “starting
homeschool” yet.) When I asked once if she could tell me more about this
style of learning she said that she really didn’t know much, but that it was
the education that her husband was raised with in some Eastern European
country and he thought it was best. Hello?!??!?! She is going to teach her
children using a style she knows very little about but she tells other
people to do their homework on homeschooling. Yeah. Well. I rarely posted
personal posts on that list and usually only posted “informational” posts.
I wasn’t looking to that list for support in our unschooling, just looking
for people to hang out with. Very scary people to hang out with. :-)

What I have found in doing work with interpersonal communication skills is
that people who have doubts about the way that they are doing something will
tend to read what other people say as confrontational. They may be
questioning something that they have done or did something that they felt
wasn’t the right thing, but when they read that verification (that what they
did may not be right) they find that they have to justify their actions and
any information, both positive and negative, is seen as a challenge. I know
this list is good for questioning what people are doing by asking lots of
questions and for some people that can be seen as a challenge to the way
they are currently doing things and it makes them feel like they have to
defend it or prove why the suggestions won’t work for them.

I have to say that it felt good to get kicked off that list. It validated,
for me, the things that I thought about most of these women.

***

But unschooling encompasses so many approaches to life — and I have
seen people get jumped on for aspects that are outside the strict
realm of unschooling, too. The forms of discipline (and by
discipline, btw, I’m not necessarily referring to punishment) have
been touted as “this is the only way” — not in so many words, of
course, but the implication has been there. My son, imo, has always
been incredibly easy to raise, but I know there are some children
that are much more challenging to guide. So, because x,y, and z
worked well for us, doesn’t mean it will work best for you, or Susy
Q down the street. Does that make sense?

***

I think the EXACT SAME principles are important for EVERY child.
Respect, kindness, generosity, peace, joy and gentleness are something
every child needs and deserves no matter what. HOW that plays out when
dealing with challenges will look different from situation to situation.
The principles are the same.
The philosophy is the same.

What we discuss here is how to work as a PARTNER with your child. What
we discuss is how to help learning unfold in your home in a natural
manner. What we discuss is how to respect children and their choices
on every level. That’s what we’re here to discuss…how to GET to
unschooling (or dig deeper).

We’re all learning and growing constantly. But some of us have found a
very deep and abiding confidence in unschooling and in living
respectfully with our children. We only want to share what has worked
and what is detrimental. This list was created specifically for that
purpose. To deter from that purpose would be disrespectful to all the
folks that signed up here to GET that from the list.

My confidence and ability to speak about unschooling does not mean I’m
not also digging deeper and learning more as I walk this
journey…believe me!! Just now, I walked into my bedroom with a pile
of nachos and Jalen says “MOM, you can’t eat in your room!!” (I’ve
asked everyone not to bring food in my room since I can’t STAND it in
my bed and all over the floor).
I looked at him funny and he says “well, YOU said it!”
“You’re right buddy, thanks for reminding me” I answered.
We went and ate them together at the table and Markus says “He has no
tolerance for hypocrisy”. “)

So true. Jalen reminded me tonight, that respect means that I don’t
ask something of them that I wouldn’t do myself!! duh. I love that
they won’t let me get away with that crap….they keep me true.

***

Inasmuch as possible and on an ongoing basis…
to know yourself and what you’re about (that’s the principle) says
volumes to the child. This works with everybody, including adults.
That way the possibility of getting drawn into someone’s drama …
their struggles … is not so likely. In other words, people who have
a fairly accurate sense of themselves remain steady. Not distant
(unless they need to be for self-preservation from abuse) but they are
themselves not who/what others think they are. And so that
transference of the child’s own issues from self to parent doesn’t
happen. With support and empathy (relating not identifying with) for
the child, the parent can simply be — a bulwark when needed in the
storms of life rather than a barometer.

***

I have never, ever read a post that tells anyone to ignore a very real
medical need!! If there is a REAL reason to impose something, then by
all means do it. But it can still be done with respect to what that
person wants, meeting their underlying needs.

If you’re in a partnership with your child, then all issues/challenges
are going to be handled AS a partnership rather than top-down
management style. Of course children don’t have the same experience
and maturity that an adult does. Of course we are supposed to keep
them safe from harm. But a child wants to stay safe from harm too!
They don’t always know how, nor understand consequences but if treated
as intelligent capable human beings, they will surprise you with their
ability at a very young age.

Nobody here is advocating a free-for-all. Nobody is saying “let your
child do whatever they want, regardless of the consequences” yet that
seems to be the message some folks are getting.

Arbitrary rules are silly. Principles help us live by a “code”, a code
that can apply in a variety of situations. My bedroom is shared by my
children but I don’t like food in it. They understand that. That
doesn’t mean we have a rule that says “You can never eat in a bedroom”.

When they want to watch tv in Sierra’s room, they bring food in. When
she doesn’t want mess in her room, we try to bring in mats or
something to meet both needs…..food with tv AND lack of food on her
floor.:) The goal is to strive to meet everyone’s needs, not lay down
some arbitrary rule. There are still codes of conduct, guidelines,
basic principles of treating each other well and personal boundaries.
Heck, call it a rule. But our “rules” are mostly up for discussion
because they center around what each of us prefers. The only ones I
can think of that I wouldn’t be willing to fudge on, are things like
“no smoking in my house”….not really an issue around here though.:)

Balance. That’s what it’s really all about. Balance and respect.

***

Streets are deadly for all children. Toddlers don’t have the
experience to understand that cars can kill them.

Does that mean the only answer is to limit and control the child?

Turn your thinking around from protecting them to being their
partner. Toddlers may want to run into the street but they also want
to stay alive! Helping a child doesn’t mean letting them run into
danger just because that’s the direction they’re headed with sparkles
in their eyes. But the other choice isn’t being a roadblock.

We can offer something better.

We can stay away from busy streets until a child can understand.

And we can give them a dose of information as we’re steering them clear.

Same with deadly peanut allergies.

It’s a lot more useful to ask how unschoolers handle a potentially
life threatening situation than to say “No, can’t, our situation
isn’t average so we need to control.”

***

It is the challenging children who most need to have their parents on their
side, trying to see the world through their eyes, listening to them, helping
them to navigate the world. They are the most likely to strongly resist and be
permanently harmed by coercive and punitive parenting methods.

Some children are hugely resilient. They can sail through the most horrendous
situations seeminly untouched, rising above it all and flourishing. Some
children have no resilience at all. They are scarred by every negative thing
that
ever happens to them. Most children are somewhere in between those extremes.
“Challenging” children tend to be on the unbouncy end of that spectrum.