Unschooling4Life.com: Information about unschooling

“but when a newbie parent comes here freaking out because this is new
and their children are doing the usual stuck on TV or video games and
its new and scary to them—they get chatised and judged for reacting
and worrying. ”

Bullshit.
They get advice and support and information and questions.
They get loads of FREE information and complete gentleness UNTIL they
start lambasting the folks that live this lifestyle.

If someone comes on here with a vague notion of what unschooling
really is, they may find it very challenging and have quite a bit to
say. That’s cool. I’ve never seen anyone “chastised” or “judged” but I
have seen them questioned heavily. The guidelines explain that if you
don’t want something discussed, please don’t post about it.

The folks that might find it a difficult list are the ones that want
to storm in here all brimstone and hellfire, telling us how screwed up
our kids will be if we live exactly how we’re ALREADY living (and
without any of the mythical detrimental effects they assume).

I was just thinking about unschooling and some discussions held at the
recent conference about the whole “unparenting” issue.
FREEDOM is only half of the whole unschooling equation.
MINDFULNESS (awareness) is the other essential half and freedom
without the mindfulness is basically anarchy. You really need both
for successful unschooling. I actually believe that if all you’re
going to do is give kids loads of freedom without being present and
mindful, then traditional parenting is BETTER.

Once again, I love this list, I love sharing the unschooling lifestyle
with people irl and at conferences. But please remember, we are all
VOLUNTEERS and it gets old to hear about how lame the list is, or how
we’re all so judgemental. If people don’t like it, there are other
resources. Hell, anyone can start their own list for that matter.

***

I know that the vegetarian analogy has been used, but I’ll use it again :)
Consider if you were on a list for vegetarian living. A new person signs on
and the first thing that they post is along the lines of, “I hate
vegetarianism. I have no energy. I’m not getting enough protein and iron.
I’m tired of eating salads and I just think it is the wrong thing to do.”
How long do you think it is going to take for that person to be “judged” and
“chastized”? They most likely will be questioned as to why they joined a
vegetarian list to begin with if they hate it so much. Now what the person
*may* be asking is, “I’m having difficulty with understanding how to get
enough pretein and iron in my diet. I know I’m not eating the right foods.
Can you help me figure out what I am doing wrong so that I can continue to
have a healthy and vegetarian lifestyle?” But that’s not what they asked.
The condemned veggie eating, made a bunch of people angry and then when
people didn’t answer their real (underlying and deeply cloaked) question of
how to fix their eating, they got huffy and decided that all vegetarians are
mean and judgemental. It’s this one person’s attitude, not the list’s. :)

Did the person who started this thread do anything different? I doubt it.
But she also didn’t come here with a seemingly open mind or at least she
didn’t represent herself as such. She also didn’t represent herself as
truly unschooling. It seems like they were “unliving.” In a pergatory-like
holding pattern waiting for life to do something for them. It makes me
wonder if she actually had read much on unschooling or trusted any of the
things she has read because of mainstream prejudices.

***

Well, in a recent thread a panicked mother was accused of being
neglectful—which I was totally surprised to see since she obviously was
NOT, especially since she came here for help. In her case, her kids have
done nothing but play video games and watch TV for 4 years, she is obviously
mindful of that and has tried to sway them onto other activities to no
avail. So, where would the happy medium be for her, how can she get her
kids out of their room without forcing her ideals/interests on them–still
giving them freedom and being mindful??? I think that issue is what is hard
for newbies—I know I had to deal with that with my boys, of course it was
for 2 months, not 4 years—but it certainly is scary nontheless!

***

I never got that from her message. What I got was that she was waiting for
*them* to start living for them to make the first move. She sat for FOUR
YEARS waiting for them to become engaged in something. Nowhere did she show
that she had been actively involving them in her life or that she was doing
any living herself. She said she sat there and watched her children become
fat and unhealthy. Yes; that is neglectful. She was truly “unparenting”
something I would not say that Ren, Pam, Kelly, Rue or even myself are doing
even though we are living unschooled lives.

If the truly generous volunteers on this list can help that mom see
how she can embrace her kids’ passions rather help her figure out how
to “sway” them away from their passions ~~ in my mind ~~ that would
supporting her to move towards unschooling. That’s the purpose of
this list, as I understand it.

If I remember correctly, she was writing that her kids did not take
to unschooling because they were not interested in much else than
gaming and TV watching. But, it seemed to me that it may have been
more about her expectations than anything.

I think in order for unschooling to work we have to accept and love
our kids as they are, not as we wish them to be! When we can accept
them just as they are, we give them the freedom to become who they
are! It’s glorious to be part of, and it’s so easy to stifle our
kids with only our expectations, even if we don’t say a thing!

I’m telling you, if people can trust this process, they will see
amazing things unfold, just like the peonies in my yard!!

Warning, Folks: I feel another flower analogy coming on!!!!

So, we have a couple of peonies right by our front door, and when
they’re first growing they put out these round buds that open up to
be these giant boisterous flowers that have an amazing aroma. When
the buds are first opening, they really look too small to produce
that kind of a flower and after the flower opens fully, you have to
wonder how on earth all that flower could have come from that tiny,
little bud. Of course, if you try to interfere ’cause you think it’s
not going well and it needs your help, you ruin the whole
process. But, if you can just trust the flower to do what it’s
supposed to do, you get rewarded with this incredible blossom!!

Interestingly, our peonies open later than our neighbors’ do. I
guess they have their own time schedule, but eventually they do
open. Also, sometimes those blossoms are so big and heavy that we
put a stake in the ground close by to support them. But, we never
tell ‘em what to do or when to do it! They just know!

***

Big assumption that she wasn’t neglectful. I think there are people
who think unschooling means being hands-off parents, “letting the
kids do what they want” gets interpreted as parents leaving them
“alone” to do what they want. It is very possible that this person
had that erroneous impression of unschooling – in which case, she
could claim to have been unschooling for the past four years while
doing nothing to support her kids interests and doing nothing to
create a rich and stimulating environment for them.

> In her case, her kids have done nothing but play video games and
> watch TV for 4 years,

First of all – anybody who says that is almost certainly exaggerating
and so is starting out on shaky, somewhat dishonest, ground. I bet
her kids did LOTS of other things – I bet they ate food, went places,
etc. What people mean when they say that is almost always that the
kids LOVE to play videogames and watch tv and do way more of it than
the parent is comfortable with and that the parent thought that, if
they were left alone, the kids would eventually come to see
videogames and tv the same way the parent does, as less-than-
worthwhile activities.

AND – “playing vidoegames” is not one “thing.” Neither is watching
tv. An involved unschooling mom would be talking about WHAT the kids
were playing and watching – would see the playing and watching as
involving many varied activities. Just yesterday I posted somewhere
about my 18 year old playing “The SIMS” for many hours over the
previous couple of days. Playing “The SIMS” is not at all the same as
playing “Halo,” or “Guild Wars” or “World of Warcraft” or “Neopets,”
etc. Heck, even saying someone was playing, “Neopets,” doesn’t
describe what they were doing – it involves all kinds of different
games – logic puzzles, word games, as well as interpersonal
activities and designing and taking care of pets and on and on.

> she is obviously mindful of that and has tried to sway them onto
> other activities to no
> avail.

So – does an unschooling parent do that? Try to “sway them onto other
activities?” I haven’t ever thought of that as my role. What I do,
instead, is support the activities they ARE interested in pursuing,
while making sure that their lives include exposure to many
interesting experiences and options. I’m not trying to “sway them
away” from what they are interested in, I AM always expanding our
world to allow them to have as many possibilities in their lives as I
can.

> So, where would the happy medium be for her, how can she get her
> kids out of their room without forcing her ideals/interests on
> them–still
> giving them freedom and being mindful???

Can’t do that. If her goal is to force them off the computer and away
from the tv, she’ll create resistance or apathy – those are always
the net result of coercion – people either resist (passively or
actively) or they give up and submit to authority.

> I think that issue is what is hard for newbies—I know I had to
> deal with that with my boys, of course it was
> for 2 months, not 4 years—but it certainly is scary nontheless!

Did you eventually force them away from the computer and tv? Is that
what you mean to be advocating?

***

Absolutely NOT and what gives you any idea that I would advocate that
tactic? I accepted the fact that these are their interests and I don’t
interfere with their desire to do these things. I do try to suggest other
things we can do occasionally—things they ARE interested in—I only
suggest activities they would be interested in, if they show no interest, we
don’t do it—it’s that simple. This was about another mother’s possible
neglect of her children (which I still continue to disagree with
you—calling someone dishonest because they don’t spend 3 hours to lay out
everything that has occurred in her household over the last 4 year is just
plain wrong) so please do not go and try to make this an issue about ME
because I was expressing something I was nervous about when I started
unschooling.

***

> Absolutely NOT and what gives you any idea that I would advocate that
> tactic?

Because that is what you were defending – someone who was trying to
find a way to force her kids away from something they apparently
loved, since, according to her, that was “all” they were doing for 4
years. You were defending her. You said you’d had to “deal with that”
with your kids.

I didn’t say you DID mean to advocate it, by the way. I asked you if
that is what you did and what you meant. I asked the question because
it wasn’t clear from your post if you meant that you had successfully
done (in just a few months) what she hadn’t been able to do in four
years.

Please read questions as questions, not as attacks.

In her case, her kids have done nothing but play video games and
watch TV for 4 years, she is obviously
mindful of that and has tried to sway them onto other activities to
no avail. So, where would the happy medium be for her, how can she
get her kids out of their room without forcing her ideals/interests
on them–still giving them freedom and being mindful??? I think that
issue is what is hard for newbies—I know I had to deal with that
with my boys, of course it was for 2 months, not 4 years—but it
certainly is scary nontheless!
>>

The above is what you said. My point is that it is NOT mindful
parenting, not unschooling, to try to sway them to other activities,
away from what they love. That is not what I would suggest – is that
what you are advocating? (a question – not an attack) The advice I’d
have given her would have been to embrace and engage and expand -
find ways to get involved, show respect and honor their choices, and
expand on their activities, to help them see connections all over the
place, but not to try to lure them away because you think their
choices are bad ones.

***

I don’t impose limits on anything anymore—if I feel
something isn’t “right” (for lack of a better word, right isn’t exactly
what I mean), we talk about it and I listen to how they feel and what they
need/want and we go from there. Once I backed off, they started doing other
things on their own—and I’ve been very pleasantly surprised to see them
play and use their imagination in ways they really have done since they
started school! It’s been a beautiful change, which I’m sure will just
continue to get even better, especially since I’ve been playing with them
and found the simple joys and the fun of being a kid again—with my kids.

***

In her case, her kids have
done nothing but play video games and watch TV for 4 years, she is obviously
mindful of that and has tried to sway them onto other activities to no
avail.
**********
If she can’t sway them, why not join in? I bet they would have read gaming
magazines, I bet they would have gone to the traveling computer & game show, I
bet they would have gladly attended or helped set up a LAN party, I bet they
would have loved to attend a gaming convention, I bet they would have watched G4
the gaming channel on tv, I bet they would have done an awful lot of really cool
stuff if Mom had stopped waiting for them to stop that interest and find
something more important.

So, where would the happy medium be for her, how can she get her
kids out of their room without forcing her ideals/interests on them–still
giving them freedom and being mindful???
********
Isn’t part of being a mindful unschooling parent accepting your kids Where they
are? This sounds like an amazing passionate interest, WHY try to change it? Why
should it be a happy medium for HER?

I think that issue is what is hard
for newbies—I know I had to deal with that with my boys, of course it was
for 2 months, not 4 years—but it certainly is scary nontheless!
***********
It really doesn’t have to be scary. Would it be scary if your (general you )
child went out and spent 12 hours a day, every day for 3 months, at the barn
with a horse? Would it be scary if your child suddenly found a deep interest in
Jewish Orthodoxy and Hasidim and read everything they could find at the library
for 4 months?

***

my heart is just bursting with things to say -
I joined this list maybe about a month ago when I
started reading more about unschooling and really
liking it, but have not posted here yet.
So, here is an introduction first:
I have 4 sons (18, 15,4 and 1). The oldest two are
stepchildren. The 15 y.o., Jacob, left school
the end of 7th grade until 8th, generally played video
games all year and had frequent run-ins with his Dad
about trying to follow a curriculum which he wanted
him to do to try to meet requirements – all that was a
bit frustrating. So he went back to highschool.
Meanwhile I found out about unschooling and reading
every back issue of Life Learning online – One issue I
got in the mail had a great article about a young girl
leaving highschool, which I gave to my stepson, plus I
found the Teenage liberation handbook and gave both of
those to him to read, since I could see he was not
enjoying highschool anymore either -
He said that is exactly how he felt and stayed home
from school to read the book, than we brainstormed how
to get him home ASAP where he now is – happily
unschooling. Unschooling is so right for him i see the
changes already, in his happiness and calmness and
quietly going about finding out things about the world
.
I thought I was already unschooling my 4 y.o. but when
I joined this email list I learned so much more in
such a short time already I am very grateful to all of
you.
So when I heard about the conference I had to go.
one of the biggest issues I had with the unschooling
was that I did not know too many people doing this (2
families total, one who is moving away, one I just met
recently and got to know better at the conference – hi
Cyndi). My ds just loves to find other children to
play with and would like to make some friends. We
often go places where we find other kids, but I have
found that I get extreemely stressful around those
situations. The kids are often rude (no, you can’t
play with us, we don’t know you), or ‘ if you do that
(whatever?) I’ll kil you, or the parents
(babysitters) have this horrible way of parenting that
just makes me cringe everytime I see it. Like
time-outs, threats to say ‘sorry’, counting to 3 as if
the world is going to blow up when they reach that
number ( don’t know what that is all about…?).
So, when we got to the conference my son was in
absolute bliss, the children there were more than
willing to play, involve him, be respectful and
engaging, and when someone accidentaly hurt another in
some wild playing, they would go over to that child
and say they were truly sorry, they did not meant to
hurt them. I missed pretty much all of the talks
because of my two little ones, but just being there
was so worth it, even just to see my ds beaming and
having so much fun and meating all those other
wonderfully free children.
I also enjoyed meeting other parents and staying up
talking until 12:30 am on saturday (Joanne, Lucian
just LOVED playing with your daughters and is asking
if he will see them again).
I did hear bits and pieces of talks from Ren and Kelly
and even those bits got me thinking more -
Contrary to my sons I was still too shy to go up to
all the people I would have loved to have talked to,
but I certainly know this won’t be my last conference
and I am very happy that I can still talk to you now
and ask all those questions that have been coming up.
Already, being on the list and going to the conference
i have been fine-tuning my parenting, implementing
total freedom and choice in food, tv and bedtime and,
inspired by Whole life unschooling, also took up
playing the saxophone again and learning another
language.
Thank you so much to all of you who run this list and
who organized and ran the conference, I believe you
are doing a great service to humanity and civilisation
and have already changed our life for the better.
The conference also opened up good talks to my dh ( we
are doing WHAT with out children? So unschooling is
not just doing nothing at all?) as well as with my
father who was agressively negative about
homeschooling. For the first time (after the
conference) we had a very positive talk about things
and as I compared the schooled kids to the unschooled
and as he remembered what i was like before I entered
school – volunteering at the circus to ride the
elephant at age 4 – and after I entered school – being
totally shocked in a room full of 40 other kids and
becoming very shy and unsure of myself for a long
time.
At the end of our talk he was already looking up books
about Holt in German, and telling me of a few other
German authors that had similar ideas – he has after
all written books on education and Janusz Korzak and
is now realizing a LOT of things -
Anyways, sorry I ramble on. I just was still so
excited about it all and look forward to asking
questions and reading your wonderful comments on this
list – and another great big THANK YOU!

***

One of the things I’ve noticed is that every family has a different
idea of mindfulness, as well as freedom. I’m getting tired of moms
IRL saying “Wow, you are soooo laid back.” To me, it sounds like an
indictment because I’m not micromanaging the children. But it took me
a lot of work to get to the point where I could trust my children’s
capabilities and let them live! My oldest was so screwed on the
parenting…talk about being overprotective (between that and his
natural caution we caused a lot of issues that we’re just now undoing)

What I’m seeing with those moms is that they feel like if they aren’t
micromanaging that they are being bad parents. How did that happen?
How did we go from a society where kids had freedom to explore all
day to one where parents are telling children what and how to play on
the monkey bars? If kids get the chance to play at the park between
myriad lessons and groups….I’ve also gotten a lot of parents IRL
who sigh theatrically and complain about all the stuff they are doing
AND THE KIDS FIGHT EVERY STEP of the way. At the same time, the
indictment “You are *so* lucky, Melissa, that you don’t have to do
that.” What one friend told me (and my parents too) was that I’m
doing my kids a grave disservice by not forcing them into a few
activities. I’ve offered, we do stuff on our own, but no one really
has that desire right now.

And now I’m off on my own vent. My stepmom was giving me a hard time
and I’m still recovering. I gave as good as I got, but it stressed me
out, and I resent having to defend anything. Then on two different
groups this week I’ve had to read people who are saying that my
lifestyle is inappropriate. SIgh….

***

I am very new to unschooling and homeschooling and I have been reading the post
lately and decided to say something. I don’t post often because I know that
when you communicate there is the person giving the information and teh person
receiving the information. When you receive information unless you are face to
face you can give a tone to the information based on your feelings at the time
of reading the information but I have come to some great realizations from the
posts about who I am and how I relate to my three children. I had attended
several conferences and listened to many presenters on unschooling before I made
the decision to unschool my children and what I learned was that I had to deal
with all my concerns and insecurities before I could let go of schooly things
and just live and learn with my children and the changes that I see in my
children are unbelievable. My husband, my mom and my three sisters are
impressed by what they see in my children and I can
not say enough that I know when I started to listen and trust my children and
they know that then our relationships has changed so much. I say all this to say
to anyone who has be offended or bothered by what was posted by those who are
not new to unschooling before you choose to be hurt maybe look at why you feel
that way and if there is something that is personal maybe look at that and do
what you need to do for you. I hope i did not offend anyone for that truely was
not my intent but I needed to say that. Thanks for reading.

***

” I just hate to see when a mother comes
here, panicked and scared and she’s accused of being neglectful to her
kids—which did happen in a recent thread. ”

WEeelllll…..
I didn’t see it that way at all.

I called her out on the whole “four years of watching and waiting”
thing. I said that IF a parent thought something was detrimental to
their children and simply stood by and watched, then THAT would be
neglect. I stand by that.

She claimed her children were unhealthy. Would you stand by and watch
your child be unhealthy, not learning (according to her, though I know
they had to be learning because they were breathing!!) and just WAIT???

Unschooling isn’t about ignoring our fears, it’s about openly
examining them and finding out whether there is any validity to them!:)

It’s about being WITH our children, entering into their passions and
HONORING those passions. It’s not exactly honoring a passion to stand
by and hope they’ll get involved in something else for FOUR years!!
Yikes to the tenth power.

If I saw my children were unhealthy and not learning, I’d be VERY
concerned. What I see in that situation is a mother that is not
honoring their interests, a parent that isn’t really offering up
viable alternatives that are at least as fun as the video games.
What I hear is a lot of fear and NOT anything about unschooling.

Yes, it’s neglect to watch your child be unhealthy for four years. But
if she’d stopped waiting and simply started DOING and being WITH them,
I bet she’d see they were actually learning and growing quite beautifully.

Unschooling is providing a rich and interesting environment for ALL
family members. It’s about pursuing your own passions and truly
honoring each person’s uniqueness.
It’s about meeting the child where they are TODAY, not who you hope
they’ll become.

I really don’t believe that four different children would do NOTHING
else for four years in a rich and stimulating environment. Sorry,
don’t buy it. Prove it to me.:)

I have a full-time gamer, so I’m not doubting the time spent on video
games by some people. I have four children that all LOVE video games,
but I’ve never seen any of them (other than Trevor) go for an entire
day without doing anything else. Even my full-time video gamer is more
than willing to join us if the activity is interesting enough to him!
I can see a ton of learning gained from his very intense interest in
this form of entertainment.

Anyone doubting the amazing power of video games for learning, please
read “A Whole New Mind” by Danielle Pink. AMAZING book, all backed
with solid research.

Anyhoo, if a person wants to come on here and tell me they waited four
years and several children chose NOTHING but tv and video games, I’m
not going to believe them until they qualify the information with some
good dialogue. She’s not going to do that obviously, because I doubt
it’s true and even if it was, it just proves she was NOT unschooling.

That would be fine if she wanted to GET to unschooling and try to
understand. But she was only here to tell us it couldn’t work.

***

I know I posted about that situation. I said then and I’ll repeat now that I
find it hard to believe the claim of *no* activity outside of TV and video games
for four years. I did not accuse the mom of being neglectful, but I did ask her
to reexamine her claim of what’s been going on for those four years for both
parents and children. Unless I missed it, I haven’t gotten a response and
therefore have been able to continue looking at her situation.

***

***That would be fine if she wanted to GET to unschooling and try to
understand. But she was only here to tell us it couldn’t work.***

I think we’re confusing two different posters in this thread. Message
13650 was the “four years” post but another poster, “tresa” posted the
initial “unparenting” comment. Tresa left the list on 5/26. I
believe she intended to start her own list, an unradical unschooling list
but I don’t have more information than that. The “waited four years”
poster is still a list member and may benefit from stories about kids who
played video games long term or kids who moved on from video games, or
kids who still play games but are happy and healthy kids.

We all choose the direction we are going and the speed we’re moving. If
some see unschooling on the horizon but don’t move in that direction then
they won’t get there. Maybe they don’t want to, or maybe they’re afraid
the trip will be too much trouble or the destination won’t look so good
up close. If some see it and start walking that way they might get there.
If some see it and take a flying leap, they’ll get there fastest. The
people who are walking are going to get their ankles scraped along the
way and maybe their feet will get tired or they’ll get blisters and
they’ll have lots of reasons to stop and sit down where they are. The
people who take the leap will be having so much fun flying they might not
even think about where they’re going to land. <g>

So take a flying leap, y’all. <g>

Pam Sorooshian started a list awhile back, Unschooling Stories
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingStories/. I knew it was going
to be my favorite list because I LOVE to tell our unschooling stories,
but things got busy and I haven’t posted there. I’m plugging it now
because I think it’s a great idea to have a collection of unschooling
stories all in one place from all kinds of people – people with lots of
kids, people with one kid, people leaping… <g>

If some of you have time maybe you could put some stories there and we
could send new people the link and maybe the stories would be comforting
on the days when the discussion lists aren’t. <g>

***

> But with adults they always have the option of saying no. Do
> you extend that same courtesy to your child?

No, I don’t, and it would be irresonsible of me to do so. Children
are not tiny adults, and should not be treated as such. It does
them a disservice to do so. I would not let my daughter spend 12
hours a day in front of a video game any more than I’d let her eat
an entire box of cookies each night for dinner, or not bathe or
brush her teeth.

-=-=-=-

Ren let this post by *just* as we were all heading out of town to the
NE Unschooling conference in Peabody. I believe Tresa’s already left
the list—not unexpectedly IMO after she sent *this* post! <g>

I’ll still respond since others of you may be sitting on the same
fence.

Children are NOT tiny adults, you’re right. They’re more akin to
foreigners in a strange land. BUT they *are* just as deserving of
respect and *should* be treated as *such*!

I “let” my children play video games 12 hours/day. They’re welcome to
eat an entire box of cookies for dinner. They must not bathe or brush
their teeth on my schedule.

But one doesn’t play video games at all. The other plays when he wants
to—but he’ll just as soon jump in the pool, jump on the trampoline,
go for a walk, have me read to him, bake brownies or make spaghetti, as
play video games—unless it’s brand new! Then he chooses to play with
it for some time. Neither has ever eaten a box of cookies for dinner.
Not even close! I, on the other hand, had more food regulations and
have been known to eat a box of cookies! <g> Both bathe and brush their
teeth regularly—sometimes with reminders.

-=-=-=-=-

It is my job as a parent to make sure my children are healthy and
happy.

-=-=-=-=-

By that, you mean that I don’t make sure my children are healthy and
happy?

-=-=-==-

Although some kids might think an all day video-game, cookie
eating, bath-free world would be fabulous,

-=-=–=-

Ummmm—probably just the kids from whom these things are withheld or
enforced. Children with free choice choose other activities, broccoli,
and baths.

-=-=-=-=-

as a parent we know that
would lead to illness in the short term, obesity in the long term.

-=-=-=-=-

Liar.

And as soon as your kids realize this, everything you say will be
questioned.

-=-=-=-=-

Obviously that’s an extreme example, but it makes the point.

-=-=-=-

No, it doesn’t. You’re showing a lack of trust in your kids and really
just relying on old tapes in your head.

If people are coming to this list, we assume they are looking to make
changes in their lives. Clinging to old thoughts and ideas is no way to
get unschooling.

-=-=-=-

Children need parents for a reason, and sometimes, that reason is to
tell them “no” untill they are mature enough to make healthy,
reasonable, responsible decisions themselves.

-=-=-=-=-

They need parents to love them and trust them and help them make their
way. They don’t need a dictator who will them them where and when and
how. They come into this world as capable learners. VERY capable
learners. What they need is someone who will help them make healthy,
reasonable, responsible decisions NOW—not when they are “mature”
enough—NOW! ANd they can and they do.

-=-=-=-

Unschooling doesn’t mean un-parenting.

-=-=-=-

If I had a dollar for every damned time I heard that, I’d be on my
little farm in Virginia right now!

Unschooling parents should be THE MOST attentive parents in the world!
We should make every effort to be present WITH our children and know
what they need and try to make that happen. Unschooling parents should
be helping their children to manuever through rough terrain, not
blocking the way or making it rougher. They should be letting them know
what’s acceptable and expected on different road types—especially new
ones. We can offer maps and directions when they ask or quietly stuff
one in a pocket—just in case. We should hold their hands when it’s
rocky or slippery and stand close by when it’s smooth and familiar.
They NEED to feel their way and even get lost every now and then (a
great way to learn a new city, by the way!), but they don’t need a
back-seat driver or to be tugged this way and that down the street!

Be the partner they need!

Unparenting—BAH!

***

> I “let” my children play video games 12 hours/day. They’re
> welcome to
> eat an entire box of cookies for dinner. They must not bathe or brush
> their teeth on my schedule.

My 18 yo DID play videogames for more than 12 hours per day, for the
past two days (Tuesday and Wednesday) she probably played “The SIMS”
about 16 hours each day. She’s on a break – she just finished doing a
very intense musical theater production at the community college, in
which she had her first really big lead part – it was exhausting. She
also was just in her first big dance concert – she took up dancing
late – at 16 years old – and it is hard for her. She has her first-
ever boyfriend – so there is a lot of stress (good stress/happy
stress) associated with that, for her – lots of self-consciousness,
especially.

Oh yeah – and there is the fact that we had a fire in our house,
we’re living in a rental without almost any of our own belongings -
the rest of us got clothing out, but she got almost none of her
clothing – none of her music, and on and on. (It isn’t burned up, it
is mostly being cleaned and stored – but it has been 3 months and she
really misses her stuff more than the rest of us do.)

Taking two full days to do NOTHING but play “The SIMS” seems like a
really nice kind of down time to me. So – she did that for two days
and then yesterday evening she came to our homeschool park day with
my husband, just to hang around with other people for an hour or two,
and then later last night about 11 pm she suddenly called a
girlfriend and made arrangements to go there and spend the night and
some other kids are going too and she seemed all refreshed and happy
and ready to party! <G>

Other times that my kids have played videogames for hour after hour -
day after day – have not always been so obviously “recovery time.”
Sometimes it is because they have a new game and they LOVE it and are
challenged to master it and just don’t want to stop until they have
had enough.

I know lots of kids who play videogames at night – most of the night.
These are games in which they interact with other players, online,
and they go on all night, partly because of time zone differences. It
is exciting, fun, there is a LOT of learning going on.

Rosie just completed an online driver education course – worked on it
about 6 hours per day, for about 6 days. A few months ago she was
doing an online math course (ALEKS) the same way – spending 6 to 8
hours per day on it. That’s how some people function – it is how “I”
function, too.

I don’t see any difference between playing videogames and doing the
math or drivers ed online programs, in terms of “educational value.”
Some people would be impressed and think it was wonderful that she
worked so hard on the online “courses” and would be distressed by
spending that same amount of time playing online games. To separate
what is educational from what is not – that seems incredibly arrogant
to me. I know, from years of watching many many kids, that we cannot
see, from the outside, what is happening inside their heads – we
can’t know what brain development is taking place, we can’t know what
they are really learning, and it is ridiculous for us to think we
know better than they do which activity is more valuable for them.

***

can we all just take a moment to remember those people who have changed the
world because they pursued their passions (like hello, Bill Gates dropped
out of college to pursue his passions and look where he is now! the man who
loves software and gaming is on top of the world doing something he loves
because he pursued his passions regardless of how many people thought he was
crazy)… even if they didn’t have the support of others. Now, let’s think
about what the world could be like if everyone pursued their passions and
had the loving support of others and most importantly their family.

the more I dive into unschooling and life the harder it is for me to hear
the old tapes coming out of other people’s mouths.

why do people come here to learn about unschooling and then balk at what
they hear and go running away?

***

Perhaps they are not ready. Perhaps they misunderstand unschooling.
Some people think it means just shucking formal curriculum but still
covering core subjects in a relaxed manner. Some people think it
means letting the child schedule themselves with textbooks without the
parent hovering over them.

I think unschooling is very misunderstood. I know the very first time
I heard about it, I absolutely loved the idea of making things easier
on myself by throwing out our schedules but after a few months of my
children doing nothing but playing, I assumed we weren’t the
unschooling types. I truly expected that after a while the kids would
ask to do schoolwork. I just didn’t really understand unschooling. I
had joined some groups like this one, maybe even this one as well, and
as I learned more, I had no confidence in either my children nor
myself to just let go of the way I thought things should be.

Boy, I wish I knew what I know now. But I guess this is something
that is just so radical that it can take a while to really sink in.
I’ve been sinking myself into unschooling for 4 months and as summer
is hitting, I’m seeing people gearing up for the Fall. I’ve had some
twinges of doubt, and longing for curriculum (I’m a former curriculum
junkie) but every time I start looking at stuff for sale, it just all
looks so stupid and so wrong. I’m thinking that maybe I’m finally
getting it and living it. It feels so good and I don’t want to lose
this feeling. :)

***

I’m still reading all the posts, but wanted to respond here. SO
many of you have expressed things in a way I agree with. Being a
newbie, I wanted to add that when I first saw the word unschooling,
I thought “NO WAY!”. (for the record, I initially thought that way
about homeschooling, “no way could I be at home teaching my daughter
all day!”). BUT, that was because I knew VERY LITTLE about
homeschooling and other options. SO, being the reader and digger
that I am, I started my internet searches, reading every book I
could get my hands on (amazon.com loves me! I borrowed some from
the library, but I love to own them so I can make notes in the
margins if so moved, underline passages etc). I kept coming across
unschooling, pushed it aside, came across it again and again. Even
though I initially thought no way, there was something that stuck
with me, especially after reading Dumbing us Down (John Holt and
John Taylor Gatto especially made the lightbulb go off).

It took about 2 years of reading, absorbing, mind altering, before I
found this group (I actually started on one of those “more critical”
groups someone alluded to here and was “criticized” on my first
post. I was pissed, but I now realize I needed to become more
familiar with unschooling, and to work on changing my perceptions
about unschooling, I really had NO CLUE, especially radical
unschooling. Yes, it’s very misunderstood unless you do the work
to really get it.

Change is hard. I feel that those who have posted and attacked
here don’t know much about unschooling, and as Kelly and others have
stated, want the group to lead them through it. You have to do the
work yourself. You have to be ready to make the shift in how you
live your lives, and get past your past and how YOU were brought
up. I agree that there are some people who won’t ever be able to
do that, you have to WANT to change and live your life more freely.

I’ll admit that sometimes in the past I have felt envious of those
here who have “always unschooled”, but I’ve found the more I read,
the more natural it feels. In order to hear the advice so freely
given here (and I’ll add my thank you for being here to the others!)
I have to continue to work on it on my end.

Many things have been swirling around in my head recently that I’ve
been wanting to express but have felt SO foggy! So many of you
have written things that have helped me through this blah period
(and this after just attending my first conference! Go figure -
I’ll blame it on PMS). I don’t always have eloquent things to say,
but I DO get SO MUCH from what others write. This is one newbie who
is very grateful this group is here.

***

<<If I had a dollar for every damned time I heard that, I’d be on my
little farm in Virginia right now!>>
My thoughts exactly!
Kelly you covered this so eloquently.
I’ll add my rough edges..:) I know she left but someone else may benefit
from this conversation. I was actually going to bring up “unparenting” ..YUCKY

The problem is perception. One parents safe zone can be another’s panic
zone.

I see a trend in the unparenting statement. Honestly, hearing it a few times
the last week I’m seeing it as a negative insulting statement(thankfully not
directed at me bc my bs meter has reached it’s limit) . Less judging and
more understanding of the real crisis IF ANY. Neglect happens, yes. However..
more often I see parental panic/worry or even micro-managing of small people.
Family values that cross into rules followed by sadness and tears… Nothing
to do with unschooling…

In school kids do for parents,teachers,friends or their future and less for
themselves. In unschooling they answer to themselves and or their parents(not
adults but great practice). Their own self accountability(not guilt) of
what’s real and who’s affected and is it really a good choic?. It’s ok to make
a
choice that didn’t turn out well. Mistakes (mis-takes as mentioned at the
conference) are ok!

Honesty,trust,kindness,respect of property are useful guides. However..every
situation doesn’t mean a no it just means parents need to be there rather
then say no bla bla bla barf..

This is on my AOL page “Just because one disagrees with what another does
doesn’t make the persons choice wrong it makes the critical one appear to lack
creativity.”

If parents nag,whine complain and show their children that trust is a
parental condition/freedom within the parental ray beam they will challenge
that at
every turn.

Unparenting sounds to mean = neglect, yikes… Suggesting a parent is
neglectful doesn’t help but rather blows up the communication bridge. I know
when
I heard someone say it recently I was jaw dropped at the passing of blame by
the actual parent who was awol, hmm.

***

Are you truely asking this question??? The people who have been doing this
for a long time, or have always done this with their children have a HUGE
advantage over the newbies who come here looking for support. This is a
totally new way of life, not just unschooling, but a complete change of how
to raise children and it is daunting to someone who was raised a certain way
and needs to change their whole way of thinking. The way some of you talk,
it should be easy and natural and we are terrible parents if we don’t fall
into it right away—I know you don’t actually think that BUT the way some
of you respond to newbies asking questions, it sure looks as if you believe
it. The one thing that gets me, many of you old timers tell us newbies to
be patient, to be loving and understanding and supportive—but when a
newbie parent comes here freaking out because this is new and their children
are doing the usual stuck on TV or video games and its new and scary to
them—they get chatised and judged for reacting and worrying. I think that
people go running away because of the way they are responded to, not because
of their fear of unschooling. If this lifestyle is about nurturing and
being supportive, why does that stop at other adults??? It sounds like so
many of you are wonderful parents but shouldn’t that extend into being a
supportive human being—expecially on a list called unschooling basics???
Can’t people be helped without being judged or ridiculed? Remember, this
lifestyle doesn’t come easy to everyone, some people will never be able to
get it. But if someone comes here asking for help—I think it is in
everyone’s best interest to be caring and supportive.

***

No, I believe that it’s hard as hell. Simple, but not easy. Hard as
hell!

ANd I don’t think *any* of us were raised that much differently. I’d
say the majority of us (Pam S is probably the exception) were raised
traditionally with much of the same baggage.

Even with all the baggage I started with, I *know* it’s possible! ANd
I also know that every minute you waste *fighting* it is another minute
you could have been using to enjoy your children and unschooling.

-=-=-=-

The one thing that gets me, many of you old timers tell us newbies to
be patient, to be loving and understanding and supportive—but when a
newbie parent comes here freaking out because this is new and their
children
are doing the usual stuck on TV or video games and its new and scary to
them—they get chatised and judged for reacting and worrying.

-=-=-=-=-

Yeah–I struggle with that. And with other contradictions in my life.
“Hurry up!” and “Be patient—what’s your hurry?” I say those at the
same time <g> But the fact is: you only have a *very* limited amount of
time with your children. If you keep waiting, that child will be grown
and gone!

I’ve never met someone who has *gotten* unschooling to whine, “I wish
I had waited longer to get it!” It’s ALWAYS, “I wish I’d gotten this
sooner!” That includes *me*!

So, I want you to be patient and understanding of what your *child* is
going through—but if I’m *just* as patient and understanding with
*you* (and I’m really more patient and understanding than you think!
<bwg>), you may remain *stuck* for much, much longer —and undo all
you’re working on with your child!

I KNOW how scary this is. but if I were to keep holding your hand and
say, “It’s OK, take your time”….time’s *gone* before you know it.

Don’t waste another second! Fake it ’til you make it if you have to!

-=-==

I think that people go running away because of the way they are
responded to, not because
of their fear of unschooling.

-=-=-=-

Think again. Not many people leave this list. It’s all about fear.
Fearing the unknown, what’s different, what’s strange. We all have
fears, but wallowing in them—especially with unschooling—will not
take you further on the journey.

Relatively speaking (! <g>) this is the gentlest place to figure this
out. But if you think understanding unschooling is hard, try explaining
it to family, friends, and strangers.

This is NOT a journey for wimps! You really DO have to be strong to
stand up for your kids.

If they run away because they can’t handle *my* heat <g>, they
probably couldn’t stand up to a Mil’s or a neighbor’s heat—or even
their own selves!

Not that that’s my goal (to chase them away), but this is NOT easy! It
takes a certain personality to handle being on the outside almost *all*
the time (except at conferences! <G>)!

-=-=-=-

If this lifestyle is about nurturing and being supportive, why does
that stop at other adults???

-=-=-=-=-

First: I ain’t your mama!

Second: I’m happy to nurture and support, but only if you’re working
towards the goal. If you’re fighting every step of the way, I’ll let
you stop—and even run back to where it’s safe. I can’t stop you!
*Many* people can’t or won’t make this trip. They’re not strong enough.
They have too much baggage and can’t drop any of it by the side of the
road.

I only want to help those who are *interested* in changing. I can’t
make you follow me. I *can* make this path seem attractive enough for
you, smoother, and with fewer rocks. I can show you ways to lighten
your load. I can help toss shit aside. I can give you some tips on how
to breathe better or work your legs a bit to build up muscles you never
knew you had. I can give you songs to whistle! <g>

I can tell you that I’ve been on this road before and I can ease your
fears about what’s around the next corner. BUT! You have to *want* to
go there! You have to *want* to make the change. I’m not going to pull
you along or even carry you. YOU have to take the steps.

I guess I could stop and sit down with you and hold your hand and
commiserate with how hard the journey is, but that won’t get you *any*
further along. It slows you down. And if I commiserate long
enough—you may simply decide that the journey’s been long enough and
put a leaky tent up right where you are. There’s a beautiful, sparkling
unschooling city *just* around the corner. But I can’t make you go
there. It’s up to *YOU*.

-=-=-=-=-

It sounds like so many of you are wonderful parents but shouldn’t that
extend into being a
supportive human being—expecially on a list called unschooling
basics???

-=-=-=-

Really, Leslie, if you’re not getting the help you’re looking for
here, you don’t have to stay. If you feel you can do a better job, you
can form your own list. It’s a lot easier to sit on the sidewalks and
watch others get pushed beyond what they ever felt possible while
criticizing the coaches than it is to show up every day and help people
on the journey—but hey—whatever floats your boat.

-=-=-=-=-

Can’t people be helped without being judged or ridiculed?

-=-=-=

Sure. On your list. Especially if what you’re seeing here is judgment
and ridicule.

-=-=-=-=-

Remember, this lifestyle doesn’t come easy to everyone, some people
will never be able to
get it. But if someone comes here asking for help—I think it is in
everyone’s best interest to be caring and supportive.

-=-=-=-=-

The people who won’t ever get it will leave. That’s what they do.

If someone comes here looking for help, she’ll hang around, try some
of the suggestions, work harder, see the lights below, and struggle to
make it.

I can worry about those who won’t ever get it OR I can focus on the
ones that are working *hard* every day to reach the goal.

I’m not a worrier. <g>

***

Yeah, I’ve seen some other boards and lists that have “ripped a new one” to
newbies posting and questioning unschooling philosophy.

I think that most people wonder into unschooling through homeschooling
thinking that this is just another curriculum choice. What they may truly
be looking for is “Interest Led Learning” or “Child Directed Learning” not
realizing that *Unschooling* is more than a curriculum choice. They still
want to make sure that their kids have all their 3R’s covered as well as
some science, geography and politcal science thrown in. So while we that
have become comfortable with *unschooling* can see that *everything* is a
learning experience (even if we don’t categorize it as such), others want
learning to be everything. IOW they want to make sure that their child is
learning something “educational.” So I think that this list does get a lot
of traffic from people who are looking for something different. And that is
fine. Just don’t mess up the list by condemning all unschoolers as
“unparents.”

Having been in “the system” for several years before coming to homeschooling
and eventually unschooling, I can tell you that there is a whole lot more
“unparenting” going on in traditional mainstream homes these days than in
unschooling homes. Parents who are allowing “the system” to raise their
children and aren’t taking responsibility for poor behaviour, teen
pregnancy, drug and alcohol abuse and bullying. Their children truly are
becoming “zombie faced” in front of the tv’s because there is no life beyond
school and “the box.”

***

***The people who have been doing this
for a long time, or have always done this with their children have a HUGE
advantage over the newbies who come here looking for support. ***

We’re all living on the same planet with access to a lot of information.
I think the people new to unschooling today have the advantage. I
didn’t have Internet access until Dylan was seven or eight years old.
There was one unschooling magazine, “Growing Without Schooling,” and one
unschooling article by Sandra Dodd, in an otherwise homeschooly
publication. Anyone even remotely interested in unschooling today will
get 456,000 Google hits from one search. There’s Life Learning Magazine
and Live Free Learn Free. There’s the e-zine Connections. There’s the
.info unschooling message board and web site. There are web sites and
blogs up the wazoo.

***The one thing that gets me, many of you old timers tell us newbies to
be patient, to be loving and understanding and supportive—but when a
newbie parent comes here freaking out because this is new and their
children
are doing the usual stuck on TV or video games and its new and scary to
them—they get chatised and judged for reacting and worrying. ***

The responsibility to do the initial research, to discover if unschooling
seems like something they can do, lies with the newbie. It’s not our
job to convince them. It’s not our responsibility to make sure they get
all the information. We can help people understand how the principles
apply to real life situations.

***If this lifestyle is about nurturing and
being supportive, why does that stop at other adults??? ***

It doesn’t and many, many people get the support and help they need at
these types of lists. But some people want more than that. They want
us to do the work for them and that isn’t possible.

Anyone who takes even one hour out of their day to respond on these lists
is spending that hour with an adult who could feasibly get that
information reading at anyone of the various web sites or in the archives
of these great lists. That’s an hour away from our own kids. We’re
mostly glad to do it because we *do* remember how alone we felt in the
beginning, how hard it was for us to find information. But it’s
different now. There’s a lot of information available for free. We
don’t need to be as nurturing with an adult who’s had years of experience
navigating in this world and who has Internet access as we need to be
with our kids. I’m not afraid to say it right up front. I don’t feel
the need to nurture anyone on these lists in the same way I feel the need
to nurture my kid. List members have other resources available to them
but my kid has only one mom.

***I think it is in everyone’s best interest to be caring and
supportive.***

And I think the people who volunteer on this list are the most caring and
supportive people around. This list wouldn’t even exists if Kelly and
Ren didn’t care. It’s because they care they give away their time.

And while I will always be supportive of unschooling I don’t have any
responsibility to be supportive of mom’s who are too afraid or too whiny
to do the internal work they need to do to really understand the
principles of unschooling. I’m not interested in being supportive of
people who don’t want to (or who make excuses about why they can’t)
unschool. I’m not going to hunt them down and obliterate them,<g> but
I’m not going to spend my time (because I have no time advantage<g>)
digging around inside them looking for the “on” switch. I think they
should have flipped it before they came here. <g>

This is meta-discussion. My answer as moderator to a violation of list
policy is to put anyone who continues this on moderation and stop those
posts at the queue. My answer to you in particular is this: Post
the way you think is best. Offer the support and nurturing you think
each particular newbie needs. Be the positive force you want to see
here. If that still isn’t good enough, start your own list of nurturing
support and feel free to advertise the link here. Then, when you see
someone here in need of your kind of list you can direct them there.
That would be one more resource for newbies that those advantaged
old-timers didn’t have. <g>